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Thread: Filler Question.

  1. #16
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    tac...
    i myself dont leave airspace in 577 / 450 rounds at all , weather i use betram / kynock or much larger capacity cbc cases which can swallow 120gns of bp.
    i tend to use around 60gns of swiss and 3 gns of kapok.
    another forum i frequent is the the british military forum where many experienced shooters shoot martinis with 85gns and air as the filler....
    please check it out.....https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/...r+space#p18340

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    Quote Originally Posted by loiner1965 View Post
    tac...
    i myself dont leave airspace in 577 / 450 rounds at all , weather i use betram / kynock or much larger capacity cbc cases which can swallow 120gns of bp.
    i tend to use around 60gns of swiss and 3 gns of kapok.
    another forum i frequent is the the british military forum where many experienced shooters shoot martinis with 85gns and air as the filler....
    please check it out.....https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/...r+space#p18340
    I only load .45-70 Govt, and leave no air-space at all, by using a drop-tubed load that allows of around 1/8th inch compression when loading the usual 405gr bullet. By all means continue to do what you have always done - same goes for your acquaintances and their empty spaces.

    I guess I've nothing more to add to this thread.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abasmajor View Post
    Hello,

    Thanks for the comprehensive explanations from both yourself and others who have kindly contributed to this thread and helped me gain a better understanding of the reasons for using filler in BP revolver loads.

    I'm still not convinced about the necessity of seating the ball close to the chamber mouth though because as stated in the original post, the recommended precision target load for nitro revolvers before the 1995 breech loading pistol ban used a 148 grn Wadcutter bullet necessarily seated a long way from entry to the breech necessitating quite a big jump before engaging the barrel rifling.

    Brian

    Er....when downloading a pistol cartridge such as .38 spl or .357 magnum, the much reduced nitro charge (IIRC 2.7 grains of Bullseye was a popular load) leaves a very large airspace in the cartridge. The bullet is seated to exactly the same place with a reduced charge as with a full load, thus keeping the COL within spec and thus placing the bullet at exactly the same distance from the chamber mouth. Seating a .38 spl to zero airspace with 2.7 grains of Bullseye (even if it were possible, could not be done any seating dies I have seen) would leave the bullet wholly inside the case, and nothing to crimp on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by enfield2band View Post
    I don't disagree with what you are saying. I think we are looking at this differently.

    I have read somewhere that the detonation velocity of blackpowder is about 950fps. Thus explosives are,as far as I am aware, determined by their detonation velocity. SEMTEX has a detontaion velocity of 5 mile per second, which is why I used the term detonation. Blackpowder changes from a solid to a gas when ignited even when unconfined. As you know smokeless does not, it burns very rapidly.
    The deflagration velocity of BP is about what you have stated. This is subsonic even in air and far less than the speed of sound in solids - while it is believed possible to detonate BP it is extremely difficult to do so and certainly not in the conditions encountered in a firearm. Even initiation of BP using a detonating booster (i.e one which produces a supersonic shockwave) is unlikely to detonate the BP itself and attempts to do so have been inconclusive. BP DOES NOT HAVE A RECOGNISED DETONATION VELOCITY (for that matter neither does smokeless).

    Smokeless also changes from a solid into gasses when ignited, even unconfined. What did you think it does? Smokeless at or about atmospheric pressures burns (deflagrates) quite slowly, whereas BP burns much faster at atmospheric pressures, but the burn rate increases much more slowly as pressure increases (in fact practically linearly) whereas the deflagration rate for smokeless increases exponentially with increasing pressure.

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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    I only load .45-70 Govt, and leave no air-space at all, by using a drop-tubed load that allows of around 1/8th inch compression when loading the usual 405gr bullet. By all means continue to do what you have always done - same goes for your acquaintances and their empty spaces.

    I guess I've nothing more to add to this thread.
    those who leave air spaces in bp cartridges do not do it to be different or start a trend etc..
    they have read articles and books by gun makers like mr greener and others.....so its not taken lightly.
    one chap i know shoots competitions all over europe and fires 1000s of rounds without incident or chamber ringing of any sort.
    myself i stick to using kapok as i only shoot bp occasionally.
    remember many people still use cream of wheat in bottle neck cases and dont realise they can cause case / neck separations and have been shooting that way for years without incident......pays ya money and take ya chances

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by loiner1965 View Post
    those who leave air spaces in bp cartridges do not do it to be different or start a trend etc..
    they have read articles and books by gun makers like mr greener and others.....so its not taken lightly.
    one chap i know shoots competitions all over europe and fires 1000s of rounds without incident or chamber ringing of any sort.
    myself i stick to using kapok as i only shoot bp occasionally.
    remember many people still use cream of wheat in bottle neck cases and dont realise they can cause case / neck separations and have been shooting that way for years without incident......pays ya money and take ya chances
    Somehow this thread seems to have degenerated into a WTF are you talking about, tac' kind of thing. I'm not disputing the wisdom in the Greener book, I have it myself. Nor the collective wisdom of the bp metallic cartridge shooters, I'm one them as well. I bleeve that the initial discussion was aimed at the likelihood of leaving a LARGE air space, say a couple of inches, or more, in a muzzleloading rifle that may, and indeed, is well-proven, to cause ringing or bursting of the barrel in which it takes place. This can happen by inadvertently short-loading and failing to push the bullet or ball down past the usual circle of crud that develops after a few shots, particularly in a patched ball load. Or shooting a squib load in the case of a percussion gun, then removing the nipple and pouring some powder into the breech without reseating the ball or bullet afterwards.

    I've seen a .50cal Hawken rifle visibly bulged beginning about four inches down the barrel for a distance of around three inches in a case like that. It was the view of the gunsmith there at the time that it was only the massive construction of the barrel prevented it from busting open - right where the left hand was holding the forend. Checking the position of the bullet by using the range rod, and ensuring that it was firmly down on the charge would have spared a £750 rifle from the scrap heap.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    Somehow this thread seems to have degenerated into a WTF are you talking about, tac' kind of thing. I'm not disputing the wisdom in the Greener book, I have it myself. Nor the collective wisdom of the bp metallic cartridge shooters, I'm one them as well. I bleeve that the initial discussion was aimed at the likelihood of leaving a LARGE air space, say a couple of inches, or more, in a muzzleloading rifle that may, and indeed, is well-proven, to cause ringing or bursting of the barrel in which it takes place. This can happen by inadvertently short-loading and failing to push the bullet or ball down past the usual circle of crud that develops after a few shots, particularly in a patched ball load. Or shooting a squib load in the case of a percussion gun, then removing the nipple and pouring some powder into the breech without reseating the ball or bullet afterwards.

    I've seen a .50cal Hawken rifle visibly bulged beginning about four inches down the barrel for a distance of around three inches in a case like that. It was the view of the gunsmith there at the time that it was only the massive construction of the barrel prevented it from busting open - right where the left hand was holding the forend. Checking the position of the bullet by using the range rod, and ensuring that it was firmly down on the charge would have spared a £750 rifle from the scrap heap.
    not at all tac.......
    we are discussing fillers and what we / others are using.
    for instance,
    i will put one of my east india company F version on ticket so i can make the loud stick bang and asked on another forum what they recomment.
    Some use 110gns of bp in a paper cartridge with a .690 ball loaded sharpe rifle style.
    the legend mr Bill Curtiss suggests 120 gn of bp, then using a thick wad inserted in the muzzle then place the ball on top with loads of lube then place another thick wad on top of that, he then says using your ram rod you gently push the whole lot down the barrel on top of the powder.
    Another suggested a small load of 50 gns of bp with the same amount of a filler on top. then a .730 ball with a 20 thou patch loaded on top.
    we all have different ways on reaching , hopefully a safe goal.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by loiner1965 View Post
    not at all tac.......
    we are discussing fillers and what we / others are using.
    for instance,
    i will put one of my east india company F version on ticket so i can make the loud stick bang and asked on another forum what they recomment.
    Some use 110gns of bp in a paper cartridge with a .690 ball loaded sharpe rifle style.
    the legend mr Bill Curtiss suggests 120 gn of bp, then using a thick wad inserted in the muzzle then place the ball on top with loads of lube then place another thick wad on top of that, he then says using your ram rod you gently push the whole lot down the barrel on top of the powder.
    Another suggested a small load of 50 gns of bp with the same amount of a filler on top. then a .730 ball with a 20 thou patch loaded on top.
    we all have different ways on reaching , hopefully a safe goal.
    As demonstrated by Mike Beliveau on his duellist1954 YouTube channel.

  9. #24
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    Last edited by loiner1965; 27-09-2018 at 07:50 PM.

  10. #25
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    My original intent when first posting this thread, was to try and establish whether black powder substitutes such as Pyrodex or 777 typically used in muzzle loading revolvers and classed as propellants are subject to the same safety risks associated with air spaces as black powder loads when used with lighter loads in the same firearms.

    I was also curious to find out if anybody had any real evidence that accuracy might be compromised if the projectile were to be seated some way below the mouth of the chamber which would be the case if a filler were not be used with a lighter load.

    Although I have learned a lot from all those who have kindly taken the time to provide experienced input, I'm still not really sure if black powder substitutes can be treated in the same way as nitro powders in respect to the need for fillers or indeed if anybody has any real evidence of improved accuracy if the projectile is nearer to engaging the rifling when loading the chamber.

    Any further feedback would be much appreciated.

    Brian

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abasmajor View Post
    My original intent when first posting this thread, was to try and establish whether black powder substitutes such as Pyrodex or 777 typically used in muzzle loading revolvers and classed as propellants are subject to the same safety risks associated with air spaces as black powder loads when used with lighter loads in the same firearms.

    I was also curious to find out if anybody had any real evidence that accuracy might be compromised if the projectile were to be seated some way below the mouth of the chamber which would be the case if a filler were not be used with a lighter load.

    Although I have learned a lot from all those who have kindly taken the time to provide experienced input, I'm still not really sure if black powder substitutes can be treated in the same way as nitro powders in respect to the need for fillers or indeed if anybody has any real evidence of improved accuracy if the projectile is nearer to engaging the rifling when loading the chamber.

    Any further feedback would be much appreciated.

    Brian
    i find using bp with a wad as better accuracy than 777 to be honest.
    777 doesnt like to be compressed as in loading in a revolver as you cannot duplicate the loading pressure consistantly.....not tried it with a loading tower although i do have one.
    i found no difference if i seated closer or further away from the forcing cone but my pistol shooting is not the best anyway.....sorry for wandering off your initial question

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by loiner1965 View Post
    i find using bp with a wad as better accuracy than 777 to be honest. 777 doesnt like to be compressed as in loading in a revolver as you cannot duplicate the loading pressure consistantly.....not tried it with a loading tower although i do have one. i found no difference if i seated closer or further away from the forcing cone but my pistol shooting is not the best anyway.....sorry for wandering off your initial question
    I totally agree with Mr Loiner. The whole idea of using a filler - something that was not done originally, BTW - is to bring the ball up level with the mouth of the cylinder with the aim of reducing the 'jump' from chamber into the forcing cone. IF your load, say, 25gr of BP OR any of the subs EXCEPT T7 does not fill the chamber, then putting in a known measure of filler such as Crisco, coucous or semolina, then the ball. will do it. This is a modern development - there is no mention that I can find in any documentation of the day that makes mention of ANY kind of filler when loading a BP revolver, and I'm getting my information from a gentleman who owns the largest BP gun store in the Pacific north West of the USA - who also happens to have over sixty years of BP shooting experience, and is a very famous and well-respected figure in a nation of at least ten million BP shooters. I leave it to you to imagine the hassle of loose-loading any BP revolver with powder, filler and ball at a time when you could easily drop in a combustible paper cartridge. By the time you had figured out how to do all that you were probably full of either bullet holes or arrows - maybe both.

    As noted by Mr Loiner AND the Hodgdon loading manual, T7 does NOT like to be compressed. So loads have to be figured out to minimize it happening.

    So the answer is - use a filler if you've a mind to, the same goes for a wad, either home-made of bought. Having determined the amount of load and filler that achieves just that and sets the ball on the load so that it's level with the mouth of the chamber, or don't - I don't, but others do. Back in the day, revolvers were loading using combustible paper cartridges - I still make them and shoot them. Dropped into the chamber, they are just squozed down into it by the full use of the loading ram until they stop - there is no need to try and squirt the load out of the nipple holes.

    But don't leave a gap in a BP revolver.

    If you do, please tell us what happened next, or better still, do it on Youtube so we can all see what happens when you touch off that load of 25gr of BP in what is effectively a very short pipe bomb.

    Good luck with that.
    Last edited by tacfoley; 30-09-2018 at 12:59 AM.

  13. #28
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    i use 25gn swiss no 3 and a 1/8 wad in my remington 1858.
    the wad is only there to stop gas cutting on ball ( my theory lol )
    tou dont need to but ive always done it......if i used a longer wad as in shotgun sizes the ball would be seated closer to cone but its more expensive and accuracy is the same.

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