are modern pellets good enough?

[peddy]

The design and packaging of pellets hasn't changed much in decades and in some cases the quality has dropped. But airguns in general especially PCP has changed beyond recognition, when you look at what's on offer in the states and over here. the power and ranges have been stretched to a level I thought id never see. Semi auto systems and probe operating magazines really test the Humble lead pellet. Do you think pellets have kept pace with technology? When I open a new tin of pellets and see them all rammed in, I sometimes think they haven't.

[madcarlos]

The design and packaging of pellets hasn't changed much in decades and in some cases the quality has dropped. But airguns in general especially PCP has changed beyond recognition, when you look at what's on offer in the states and over here. the power and ranges have been stretched to a level I thought id never see. Semi auto systems and probe operating magazines really test the Humble lead pellet. Do you think pellets have kept pace with technology? When I open a new tin of pellets and see them all rammed in, I sometimes think they haven't.

Yes agree with you on this , More so with the pellets rammed in, I see lots of 177 pellets with damage skirts except for the heavier ones like bis mags etc, But saying that even though Ive put some really damaged pellets in the mag when loading I have never noticed any difference on accuracy with them, I would like to see the results on 10 damaged pellets against 10 good pellets, Would be interesting to see the results,
I do mostly only plink or shoot targets with my guns but not to the extreme of cleaning, polishing and weighing etc etc pellets to notice any difference,

[ballisticboy]

Modern pellets are basically the same design as they were around 100 years ago, just made more consistently and accurately on modern machinery. As a result of the design not changing they still have high drag giving low energy retention and poor wind behaviour and ballistic properties meaning that if the pellet and barrel are not a perfect match you get a shotgun group size.
Still, if shooters are happy to keep buying the same old stuff why should the manufacturers bother to change anything?

[angrybear]

Well the design has changed, back in the 70's all I remember is dirty squat things with ribs/grooves ie marksman/spitfire look.

now we have the smooth profile ie JSB, with a multitude of different radius heads, some pointed, some hollow point, short skirts, long skirts or with a cast waist like the Bisley Superfield/H&N FT or more slug shaped like the logun penetrator.

But the basic diabolo/shuttlecock shape works so the design will remain based around it, and tins are the obvious container to supply them in.

[rapidresponse1]

I think there much better quality

[Spitzer]

The quality of todays pellets is far better than say 40 years ago, if you look at JSB for example, and H&N's Sniper Light and Sniper Magnum plus those tin alloy projectiles.

Crosman were probably the first manufacturer in the 90's to offer superbly accurate hunting and field target pellets with their cardboard boxed Premiers in .177 .20 and .22 It's a pity they don't do those anymore.

[bozzer]

As a result of the design not changing they still have high drag giving low energy retention and poor wind behaviour and ballistic properties meaning that if the pellet and barrel are not a perfect match you get a shotgun group size.

I think the ability of the manufacturers to consistently meet the desired quality of some forms of air rifle shooting is below that required standard.

FT and HFT shooters are looking for domed head style pellets that will retain accuracy out to 50m. These guys are looking for under 18mm groups at 50m ( 55 yards ) ... FT. Ideally 12mm.

Most batches will probably have 6 to 8 out of 10 pellets that can achieve that. That leaves 2 to 4 that can't. So that gets targets shooters buying more batches to find that magic batch that gives them 10/10 or 19/20 that does give that consistent accuracy. I don't think there are great batches that have all good pellets and bad batches that have all bad. There are just less bad in the good batches.

Most ( virtually all ) of these batches will give a 'reasonable' accuracy at @ 40m. Let's say @ 1 inch at that range. So most shooters are happy with that.

I'm sure you can still get the Crosman Prems in boxes.

[bozzer]

I hate to go on ( obviously I don't ) ...

... but that actually adds weight to my comments on how the Tin Chicken sports have gone over the last 30 years.

Both sports have concentrated on having stable holds for the majority of shots ( sitting and prone ). Equipment has been allowed to improve, whilst retaining those stable stances. In a lot of ways the equipment development has added to the stability ... or retaining stability when courses have tried to take shooters out of their comfort zone ( hamsters etc ).

So by keeping those very stable stances, and allowing equipment advancement, the only way to make the targets more challenging for the best has been to take targets out further and/or make kill zones smaller.

This then puts more emphasis on every pellet being of a high standard and available accuracy with each pellet paramount. So at 55 yards it's very important that each pellet is of a very high standard. Maybe too high a required standard than the pellet manufacturers can consistently produce at the rates that they need to.

Hence the target guys testing batch after batch looking for that magic sub 12mm batch at 55y ( every pellet ).

Add in a bit of wind and even the most stable of batches are flying all over the place and it can become guesswork.

Listen to a lot of the talk from the target guys about the importance of one target in an entire year. They will say that one target over a year can be the difference between Champ or Runner Up. Hence a lot of discussion about calling targets etc.

How many targets must be missed in a year by that rogue pellet that just isn't as good as the others. so it just misses that 40mm 55y target in a tad of wind, or that 15mm kill at 25y?

I've long since said that a better target sport would be one with closer targets and relaxed kills but with more shooting skill involved ... more proper kneelers and standers. That wouldn't rely so much on having the mega batch of pellets that will all do 12mm at 55y. There would be less wind lotteries. There would be more shooting skill.

Sadly, it won't happen because the sports have such low attendance numbers Nationwide that an emphasis has had to be put on volume of shooters rather than quality of shooting. Hence stable stances for the majority of shots ... and long courses/small kills ... and the magic batch of pellets.

[RustyBuzz]

I've long since said that a better target sport would be one with closer targets and relaxed kills but with more shooting skill involved ... more proper kneelers and standers. That wouldn't rely so much on having the mega batch of pellets that will all do 12mm at 55y. There would be less wind lotteries. There would be more shooting skill.
.

Some very wise words I feel

[Spitzer]

Bozzer, I am pretty sure Crosman stopped production of the boxed Premiers some years ago. Only the tinned ones of 500 are available nowdays and to be honest the quality is rubbish in comparison.
Years ago when they made boxed Prem's, I also used the tinned Crosman points in a .22 fac Rapid. They were great. Not so nowdays, I bought a tin recently online and the quality and accuracy is disappointing.

Update - and... I am wrong... Yes, Crosman still do boxed Premiers ! I've just looked on their US website. They also do a copper coated variety too.

Not seen any premiers in the UK though.

[bozzer]

The Crosman Premier 0.177 7.9gr in the boxes were still available recently. I'm sure Ramsbottom sell them but only the heavies in 10+gr ... but still in the boxes at 1250 per box.

Crosman did a few deals with the odd rifle manufacturer ( Webley etc ). The name Accupell started appearing in Webley tins.

There are a number of tins now with Premier written on them. If you look closely you'll probably see that the tins also say ... Ultra Magnum ( 10.5gr ) ... Super Point. They tend to say ... Premier ... across the top of the tin. Not Crosman Premier.

I think you'll find that you can still get the Crosman Premier 0.177 in a box. The boxes still say Crosman Premier.

[riku]

Modern pellets are basically the same design as they were around 100 years ago, just made more consistently and accurately on modern machinery. As a result of the design not changing they still have high drag giving low energy retention and poor wind behaviour and ballistic properties meaning that if the pellet and barrel are not a perfect match you get a shotgun group size.
Still, if shooters are happy to keep buying the same old stuff why should the manufacturers bother to change anything?

Well said. That is changing though as long range shooting gains popularity in USA and other parts of the world. We already have gun manufacturers coming out with guns designed to shoot lead bullets at long range.

[Steyr]

There is simply no better material than a quality lead pellet. Alloys..tin...copper.....they just dont come close. Tins are fine...its the transportation and poor handling thats the issue
Crossman used to see in cartons with lots of foam and I wouldnt have said the defects were any more than a std tin of JSBs if shipped right.
ANY projectile HAS to like the barrel and that can be purity of the lead. Design and shape of the projectile.. length head size skirt shape weight ballistic coefficient head size to name but a few. Damaged skirts get 11.5 FPE shoved up so unless its mauled I dont think its a huge game changer. I try to avoid an oval skirt more the due to the fact the head may also be damaged rather than anything 180 BAR cant blow out a skirt to the lands.
Lead is king. Long live the king in this arze ole world we live in where everything is cotton wool and dictats that tell me what is good for me or what isnt. Well #$@€ that.

[angrybear]

Well said. That is changing though as long range shooting gains popularity in USA and other parts of the world. We already have gun manufacturers coming out with guns designed to shoot lead bullets at long range.

Yes, but not at sub-12
at sub-12 the diabolo/shuttlecock shape is still best.

[ballisticboy]

Yes, but not at sub-12
at sub-12 the diabolo/shuttlecock shape is still best.

Sub-12 or over 12 makes no difference. A subsonic projectile doesn't care if it is over or under 12. Aerodynamic overturning moments don't really care what the muzzle energy is either. The main problem with bullets for air rifles has been the low twist rates and the fact that most of the inventors have not known what they were doing. The design of a successful bullet shape requires the correct balance of aerodynamic and inertial moments coupled with a long wheelbase for inbore behaviour. To design such a projectile needs a knowledge of aerodynamics and ballistics which all too often has been sadly missing resulting in poor designs leading to missleading assumptions on families of projectiles.