are modern pellets good enough?

[harvey_s]

When I open a new tin of pellets and see them all rammed in, I sometimes think they haven't.

I've never seen a tin where the pellets have been "rammed in" - if I did, I wouldn't buy them again.

Most of the pellets I buy have foam top/bottom to allow the tins to be full, but without squashing the contents.

I wonder how many people finding more than a few damaged pellets are buying them from t'internet rather than a physical shop?

That's where you really need the tins full so that they don't damage themselves in transit or when the post staff either lob them from bin to bin or drop them a metre through your letterbox

[RustyBuzz]

I've long since said that a better target sport would be one with closer targets and relaxed kills but with more shooting skill involved ... more proper kneelers and standers. That wouldn't rely so much on having the mega batch of pellets that will all do 12mm at 55y. There would be less wind lotteries. There would be more shooting skill.
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Some very wise words I feel

[Geezer]

I think the point with boxed Prems is that it used to be that the ones in tins came from a mix of dies, but the boxes came from a single die, marked on the box. So FT types would work out which die shot best in their rifle and stock up.

These days, it’s I think either the case that the boxes now contain pellets from a mix of dies, or that the dies are so worn that there is no significant difference in accuracy between pellets from different dies.

To return to the original question, I am old enough to remember (early 80s) when the best pellets were Mount Star/Beeman Silver Jets and Jets (if you could find the latter), Eley Wasps, and RWS Superpoints.

No wonder there was space in the market for the likes of Normay/Bimoco Vipers (I went through a phase with them, believing that a pellet shaped like a toadstool must be a good idea; it wasn’t), Sabos, Prometheus, etc etc.

The 80s progressively saw the arrival of increasingly high-quality pellets, responding to demand from FT and serious hunters.

The arrival of Premiers at the end of the 80s/start of the 90s seemed an important moment, like a new level of consistency had been reached. Suddenly it seemed like all the serious shooters used them.

I’m not honestly sure that today’s high-quality pellets are significantly better than those early Premiers.

In summary, over the last nearly 40 years, the best pellets have hardly got any better (and the worse ones are still rubbish). Which is a bit sad.

Except I’m pretty sure that any advance would have to go hand in hand with changes to rifles’ pressure curves and (especially) barrel twist rates. You’d have to re-engineer the “weapon system” not just invent a better projectile.

[Muskett]

bozzer has a so very valid point of when consistency gets too important that luck becomes the difference between the top ten shooters. When some of that is the pellet then a sport will eventually have prolems.
When podium place comes down to a rogue pellet then thats a problem.
When targets get smaller than what the combos are capable of, group size wise, then thats a problem.

I have an issue when heart beat is the overiding differential and greater than the equipment. If FT and HT shooters had to run 100m betwen targets then few would hit anything because the targets are so small.
Contorted position and holds that take an age to get into is to me target shooting not practical or real field shooting.

Both FT and HT are established sports and long may the circuit have fun and continue. I do worry that when equipment and technique levels are less than luck the sport will struggle. Kit should be very secondary to skill. Targets must always be doable with the equipment, and reflect skill. A cource of fire should be long enough to find who is shooting well enough to win.

As I don't shoot these disceplines I can't say more.

[MrChipShoulder]

I have tested AA 8.4 4.52mm diabolo fields with differing damaged skirts.
I shot them over 20 yards into card targets.
I was looking for single hole, 5 shot groups.
I could get single holes with perfect pellets, but the damaged ones were out by as much as the damage.

So as far as I am concerned, damage is a bad thing.
That is why I swoped over to 8.4 4.52mm JSB, just as good as AA, but with out a 3rd of a tin damaged!!

And no, JSB are NOT the same as AA, just look at the skirts side by side (from behind)

[Rich]

Agree with Bozzer and Muskett; when the margin for error is smaller than the combo of kit and pellet is capable of, then we need better pellets. 20 yard indoor wind free bench rest has a margin of about 2mm before a ten becomes a nine.

[RobF]

bozzer has a so very valid point of when consistency gets too important that luck becomes the difference between the top ten shooters. When some of that is the pellet then a sport will eventually have prolems.
When podium place comes down to a rogue pellet then thats a problem.
When targets get smaller than what the combos are capable off group size wise then thats a problem.

I have an issue when heart beat is the overiding differential and greater than the equipment. If FT and HT shooters had to run 100m betwen targets then few would hit anything because the targets are so small.
Contorted position and holds that take an age to get into is to me target shooting not practical or real field shooting.

Both FT and HT are established sports and long may the circuit have fun and continue. I do worry that when equipment and technique levels are less than luck the sport will struggle. Kit should be very secondary to skill. Targets must always be doable with the equipment, and reflect skill. A cource of fire should be long enough to find who is shooting well enough to win.

As I don't shoot these disceplines I can't say more.

The positions don’t take ages to get into. That’s a myth. I can and have got into position, ranged and dropped 2 targets in under 30 seconds in national competitions.

Biathlon style competitions would be interesting but at the top level more and more shooters are doing cardio work and other things to improve fitness because it helps on shot anyway, so it’s unlikely to change many of the top shooters.

[angrybear]

And no, JSB are NOT the same as AA, just look at the skirts side by side (from behind)

Actually some are some aren't,
my 5 tins of .25's, 1-JSB & 2-AA are identical but 2-JSB's are a different batch & slightly different inside the skirt, all equally as accurate.

I'm sure I've seen a competition online where they ran, shot & ran again a bit like summer biathlon although that's on roller blades/grass skis.

HFT against the clock would be interesting & more realistic, because out hunting you have to shoot targets as & when you see them, you usually don't have time to relax & slow your breathing/heart beat.

[RobF]

I'm sure I've seen a competition online where they ran, shot & ran again a bit like summer biathlon although that's on roller blades/grass skis.

Target sprint.

400m Run, Shoot (standing only 10m Air Rifle), 400m Run, Shoot, 400m Run FINISH

https://www.targetsprint.com/

Although HFT isn't on the clock like FT anyone deemed to be slow can be time checked under UKAHFT rules.

[TenMetrePeter]

I'm sure I've seen a competition online where they ran, shot & ran again a bit like summer biathlon although that's on roller blades/grass skis.
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https://www.air-arms.co.uk/academy/9...-sprint-series

[Muskett]

When I was competitively shooting I did wonder how best to find a winner? The person with the top score?? Well it gets to the stage when the course of fire is such that several shots can achieve the same top score and either there is a count back or shoot off.
Count back gets in the realms of luck.
Shoot offs can run out of daylight.

When is it marksmanship and when is it athleticism?

In some cases I'm an advocate of badge of marksmanship. When you achieve a level of competence. Shooting has a history of marksmanship badges. For those who can shoot to a high level but maybe not quite, or quite have the luck, to reach the podium, then badges aren't half a bad thing to go for.
Golf has a handicap system, and different courses given a difficulty grade. I'm not sure shooting requires a handicap system but certainly courses could be given a difficulty grade.
The point of the badge exercise is to have people shoot and improve their standard. As more clubs are established and permanent then the more possibilities there are. It a challenge to shoot over different layouts and places.
Shoot Century Range Bisley often enough and the home team has an advantage. Once I knew Century Range backwards, sideways, everywhichway. Clay Pigeon Grounds have the same.

Anyhow, I don't shoot FT or HFT, but rather than make the targetry depend on luck, I'd advocate an award system that allows all marksmen to be challenged. League system, competence system, and continuity system, so that there is reward for everyone who puts the time in. Different badges for different classes, and different levels, over the year.
One of the best rewards systems in the Military was the top 100 or top 50 badges. (For a time it was easier to get a top Queen's 100 Regular badge as the competition only had 150 competitors whereas the TA top 50 had 300! Whats was fantastic was the cource of fire was extensive enough to always find a winner. If your firing pin didn't break you had a chance.)
Any award system requires a centralised body to organise and monitor and award badges. That takes money. Maybe thats already in place.

As for better pellets then sure the more consistent they are the better. More than weighing and conditioning each one I'm unsure what more might be done, and pellets aren't cheap as they are. How much more expensive should they be? Ammunition on the whole has never been better.

[Muskett]

https://www.air-arms.co.uk/academy/9...-sprint-series

What Air Arms is doing I think is brilliant.

[bozzer]

FT and HFT are target sports. They aren't hunting simulation.

As Rob said the positions ... Sitting ( FT ), Prone ( HFT ), kneeling and standing ... can all be achieved in seconds by an experienced shooter.

The only sprint I've seen on a Sunday mornings is towards the burger van.

HFT and FT shooters running for 400m and then shooting ... NUUUURSE!

[Muskett]

If my post comes over as a dig at FT or HFT its not meant to be.
I agree the sports are not a Practical, nor a hunting simulation. But then its not meant to be 6m or 10m or Bell Target target shooting either. The only crossover is that of good marksmanship which is always a benefit to hunting sports.
Practice positions to a drill and there is no reason they should take long. Its familiarisation to the kit and the shooting practice. Getting proficient in any shooting discipline requires some routine to improve consistency and scores; part of the fun of it all; the application of it all to progress.

I once was a proficient small bore shot. A cup of coffee less than 20 minutes before a shoot cost a point. I hope FT and HFT doesn't get to the stage a bacon buttie is a no no; thats all

[SuffolkRifle]

Boxed Crosman Prems are still available in .177 in both weights in the UK, sadly, the same cannot be said for the other calibres (a shame, as I've a .22 that is spot on with them & I've only got about 20 left!) - as to whether they're still a good pellet? Last Sunday, chap at the club who has been struggling to group less than 4 inches at 30 yards with a new HW using AA/JSB in the varying head sizes and batches, even had it tuned etc. etc. then asked me (as I usually have several makes of pellet in the shooting case) if I had any pellets that he could try, tried a few of my sons .177 7.9g (box marked 'B') it went from 4" groups to pellet on pellet at 30 yards, and consistently hitting a 1/2" spinner at 55 yards - taking him a box of 1250 next week & another member is looking at trying them as well.