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Thread: Production numbers v calibre in older springers

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    Production numbers v calibre in older springers

    I've posted this in the collectable forum as it follows on from a previous post about the Superstar & HW77, but please move it to another area if it is appropriate but i'd be interested in the answer relating to older designs rather than modern springers or pcp's.
    In a previous post about the BSA Superstar I asked if anyone could tell me the production figures of the .177,.20 & .25 versions. Since then I began to wonder about the production figures of other makes in the different calibres that they are available in. The calibre debate is one that no doubt will appear from time to time in the future just as it has in the past. If it's a tricky one for shooters I wonder how much trickier it is for manufacturers to judge what the take up will be of a new model in a less common calibre, i.e. .20 or. 25.
    So, my question is are there any production figures around for an air rifle e.g. the HW77 or HW80 that was made in .177, .20,.22 & .25? Not to be used as a criteria to say which calibre is 'better' but to give an indication of how the numbers of .20 & .25 versions sold in comparison with the 177 & 22 versions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trajectory View Post
    I've posted this in the collectable forum as it follows on from a previous post about the Superstar & HW77, but please move it to another area if it is appropriate but i'd be interested in the answer relating to older designs rather than modern springers or pcp's.
    In a previous post about the BSA Superstar I asked if anyone could tell me the production figures of the .177,.20 & .25 versions. Since then I began to wonder about the production figures of other makes in the different calibres that they are available in. The calibre debate is one that no doubt will appear from time to time in the future just as it has in the past. If it's a tricky one for shooters I wonder how much trickier it is for manufacturers to judge what the take up will be of a new model in a less common calibre, i.e. .20 or. 25.
    So, my question is are there any production figures around for an air rifle e.g. the HW77 or HW80 that was made in .177, .20,.22 & .25? Not to be used as a criteria to say which calibre is 'better' but to give an indication of how the numbers of .20 & .25 versions sold in comparison with the 177 & 22 versions.
    Never seen definitive numbers.

    In the US, Crosman in particular pushed the .22” heavily until the late 60s or early 70s. Their adverts strongly and misleadingly implied (“power without powder”) that their rifles were equivalent to a .22” RF, just quieter with cheaper ammo. When people like Bob Law and Bob Beeman created the “adult air gun” market over there from the early 70s, they stressed high velocity, and pushed the .177”.

    In the U.K., .22” was the overwhelmingly chosen calibre for pest control until the early or mid 90s, influenced by the success of .177” in FT. That also affected things like plinking pistols. I’m sure that most Webley top-break pistols were in .22” (ditto BSA Scorpions), for example. I am not that old (50) but when I was growing up we all “knew” that .22” was more powerful, better, etc. Only 10M match guys used .177”, we thought. Or really cheap low power plinkers.

    That’s why collectors will pay more for .177” examples of classic/vintage sporting springers. For example, I can’t recall the last time I saw a .177” Webley Vulcan for sale. They exist, but not many.

    Meanwhile, over in Germany, the focus from the 50s was on close-range target shooting, so the .177” ruled the roost. About the only German-made guns in .22” from 1950-1990 were made for the U.K. market.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    Never seen definitive numbers.

    In the US, Crosman in particular pushed the .22” heavily until the late 60s or early 70s. Their adverts strongly and misleadingly implied (“power without powder”) that their rifles were equivalent to a .22” RF, just quieter with cheaper ammo. When people like Bob Law and Bob Beeman created the “adult air gun” market over there from the early 70s, they stressed high velocity, and pushed the .177”.

    In the U.K., .22” was the overwhelmingly chosen calibre for pest control until the early or mid 90s, influenced by the success of .177” in FT. That also affected things like plinking pistols. I’m sure that most Webley top-break pistols were in .22” (ditto BSA Scorpions), for example. I am not that old (50) but when I was growing up we all “knew” that .22” was more powerful, better, etc. Only 10M match guys used .177”, we thought. Or really cheap low power plinkers.

    That’s why collectors will pay more for .177” examples of classic/vintage sporting springers. For example, I can’t recall the last time I saw a .177” Webley Vulcan for sale. They exist, but not many.

    Meanwhile, over in Germany, the focus from the 50s was on close-range target shooting, so the .177” ruled the roost. About the only German-made guns in .22” from 1950-1990 were made for the U.K. market.
    Geezer got the nail on the head with that post.

    I would also like to see some official figures of production numbers of .177 vs. .22 in the older British springers because it's something I've wondered about too.

    From surveying the market over the last 15 years I have summarised that on average 1 in 15 1980's made Webley & BSA rifles were made in .177 compared to .22. I'm talking about full power "adult" rifles here, not like the Meteor or Webley Junior. Some models were even smaller ratio's, the BSA Goldstar for example.

    Of course, this is just based on what is put up for sale, people could be hanging on to those .177's meaning they're not quite as scarce as I think.

    Cheers
    Greg

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    I get the impression that the .20 is not as popular as it was some years ago, but even then it was a minority following. Not sure what the tooling costs are to make a barrel but from a manufacturing point of view it must be similar regardless of calibre. from a marketing & investment point of view it would be a bit of a venture into the unknown for the first to try it. The .25 had been around for years but dropped out of favour till a point came when ammunition for it was all but unobtainable. Nearly everyone was using either .177 or .22 yet some makers decided it was commercially viable to re introduce .25 as a calibre option. I wonder what sort of sales were expected to reach the break even point & go on to make money? I've never seen any manufacturing figures relating to calibre v production totals, maybe makers wouldn't want to release them but ratios of production totals would be of interest in the absence of totals.
    If you look at Airsporters as an example how many .177 mkIV come up for sale compared to .22 versions? Not that many.........still interested in trying to get some numbers on production runs that cover the four calibre.

    The supersport was available in .177, .22 & .25 but did BSA make a .20?

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    Thanks, thegreg.

    Your figure of 1 in 15 may well be right.

    In the immediate post-war years, lead was briefly a controlled strategic material, not for use in such trivial things as airguns. Even when that restriction was lifted, the country was bankrupt, and times were hard. Perhaps explaining why the early Webley MkIII was mostly made in .177”, as the ammo was cheaper.

    Definitely the case that U.K. market airguns (including imports like Diana/Original and mid-range guns like Meteors and Webley Falcons) from the 50s through 70s are much easier to find in .22”.

    I suspect that the arrival of AGW in the 70s may actually have increased the market for .22”. Their articles were full of phrases like “full power”, “man’s gun”, “knock-down power” (ugh...). All the hunting writers used .22”. Arthur, JD, etc.

    Oddly, Webley MkIIIs are not too hard to find in .177” (though the majority are .22”), probably easier than Meteors or similar. Theory: they were used for bell target and nascent 6 yard and 10M match.

    .20” and .25” are in a different league. Basically, the commercial idea behind both is to persuade committed shooters to buy another gun. .177” v .22” is a mass market decision, many of whose buyers will not buy another gun, at least not for years. The marketing assumption behind the niche calibres is that enthusiasts will buy them, because they are different and interesting.

    If you doubt that, the American domestic civilian firearm market operates principally not on the model of selling guns to people who don’t own guns, but on the basis of selling more and more slightly different guns to people who already own guns.

    Ditto here with the niche calibres. I do not gamble, but if I did, I would wager that absolutely no one buys a .20” or .25” as a first gun. They are things that only established enthusiasts buy.

    As evidence of which, I have three .20” guns. And more than one tin of .25” pellets, bought just in case I buy a .25”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    Thanks, thegreg.

    Ditto here with the niche calibres. I do not gamble, but if I did, I would wager that absolutely no one buys a .20” or .25” as a first gun. They are things that only established enthusiasts buy.

    As evidence of which, I have three .20” guns. And more than one tin of .25” pellets, bought just in case I buy a .25”.
    Unless you in the US. A huge number of American Airgunners bought their first Airgun from Sheridan in 20 cal. They were the class act of US production from the 1950s-70s. Even now on my US forums there are those that have known no other gun? The love of these now vintage guns runs pretty deep. Crosman who bought Benjamin-Sheridan ended the 20 cal in 2013.
    Last edited by 45flint; 21-09-2018 at 06:20 AM.

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    In 1984 I ran a reader survey in SAR magazine, and one of the questions was which calibres people used.

    95% replied .22", suggesting just one in twenty of the rifles sold at the time were .177".

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    Quote Originally Posted by 45flint View Post
    Unless you in the US.
    Of course. I should have said “in the U.K.”. But not now, though there must be some US first-timers going for the hyper-power .25”s?

    Quote Originally Posted by BTDT View Post
    In 1984 I ran a reader survey in SAR magazine, and one of the questions was which calibres people used.

    95% replied .22", suggesting just one in twenty of the rifles sold at the time were .177".
    I think I remember it!

    Of course, your readership was probably slanted toward the more serious pest controller, so the survey was less likely to be taken by 10M shooters and backyard plinkers with low-mid price low-mid power rifles.

    But, as I said above, no doubt that in the U.K., .22” was seen as “best” by huge numbers of buyers, many of whom (eg plinkers with “ASI Snipers” or Relum break-barrels) would have been as well served at lower ammunition cost by .177”s. Back then, a .22” in anything had a cachet out of proportion to its utility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BTDT View Post
    In 1984 I ran a reader survey in SAR magazine, and one of the questions was which calibres people used.

    95% replied .22", suggesting just one in twenty of the rifles sold at the time were .177".
    A guy in our club used to mention the same ratio,he may well of been quoting your survey figures.

    I wonder to what extent that figure has currently reversed?

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