Is a Pro Sport related to a Venom Mach 2?

[Daveo]

On page 28-29 of the April 1992 airgun world I've just found (in a pile of magazines in the spare bedroom)
Is a article entitled "Airguns USA"
All about Venom Arms, Ivan Hancock and some yank called Trooper Walsh who apparently single handedly financed the whole Venom Mach2 project.
There is a small black and white pic of a Mach 2 it looks like a prototype pro sport?
Can someone fill the blanks for me here?
How did air arms end up making what appears to be a production version of a fabulous custom gun?
Or am I completely wrong ?

[Gareth W-B]

​.
Ref the title: Yep.

[PCPShooter]

What, an idea by Venom / V Mach copied/ plagerised / nicked??

No surely not ......gosh, golly gosh

[Daveo]

I was 11 when this mag was published
I've heard of the Mach rifles by Venom obviously never seen one in the flesh.
I'm also aware (and I feel like I'm stating the blindly obvious now) of the similarities between lazaglide and the internals of a tx200 etc
But I didn't know the prosport wasn't exactly an AA original
I saw this grainy B/W pic of the Mach 2 with the back of the action rounded, what appears to be a shrouded barrel, hidden under-lever and the general shape of the stock it screams pro sport
Or seemingly the pro sport screams Mach 2!

[Geezer]

Yes, basically.

Long version:

Late 84/early85: HW77 comes out. Immediately wins fans in FT, rapidly knocking off the FWB Sport as rifle of choice.

Late 80s or early 90s: Venom produce tiny numbers of their HW-based specials, the Mach 1 and 2.

Around the same time, airgun genius Ken Turner makes an improved version of the HW77 for his own use, in stainless. By early 1992, Air Arms (recognising that the 77 is both better and cheaper than their fixed-barrel springers, and that the Diana 52 is about as good and cheaper) have bought his design and introduce the TX200.

The TX is an improved, mass production, copy of a Venom 77, to the extent that AirGunner accidentally used a picture of a Venom 77 when announcing it.

The TX trigger is allegedly called “CD” because it was “computer designed”. Most of us think it was called CD because a CD was better than a record (Rekord, get it?).

Later, AA produce a rifle inspired by the Mach2, of which only nine or so were made. The Pro Sport.

When the Venom guys moved to work for Webley, they came up with the Tomahawk and Longbow, which are similarly inspired by the Mach1 break-barrel, but based on the Omega, and ultimately on the Vulcan.

At least, that’s how I remember it. But, definitely, the PS is indeed based on the Mach2. Which itself is the result of a night of passion between an HW77 and a BSA Airsporter.

The fact that most, though not all, serious shooters prefer the TX to the PS (that’s a whole other thread, done to death already) suggests that the Mach2/PS design may optimise looks and novelty over functionality. I don’t know. Never had either, so can’t offer informed comment.

[Geezer]

https://www.pyramydair.com/article/W...anuary_2007/37

This may help too.

[Daveo]

Yes, basically.

Long version:

Late 84/early85: HW77 comes out. Immediately wins fans in FT, rapidly knocking off the FWB Sport as rifle of choice.

Late 80s or early 90s: Venom produce tiny numbers of their HW-based specials, the Mach 1 and 2.

Around the same time, airgun genius Ken Turner makes an improved version of the HW77 for his own use, in stainless. By early 1992, Air Arms (recognising that the 77 is both better and cheaper than their fixed-barrel springers, and that the Diana 52 is about as good and cheaper) have bought his design and introduce the TX200.

The TX is an improved, mass production, copy of a Venom 77, to the extent that AirGunner accidentally used a picture of a Venom 77 when announcing it.

The TX trigger is allegedly called “CD” because it was “computer designed”. Most of us think it was called CD because a CD was better than a record (Rekord, get it?).

Later, AA produce a rifle inspired by the Mach2, of which only nine or so were made. The Pro Sport.

When the Venom guys moved to work for Webley, they came up with the Tomahawk and Longbow, which are similarly inspired by the Mach1 break-barrel, but based on the Omega, and ultimately on the Vulcan.

At least, that’s how I remember it. But, definitely, the PS is indeed based on the Mach2. Which itself is the result of a night of passion between an HW77 and a BSA Airsporter.

The fact that most, though not all, serious shooters prefer the TX to the PS (that’s a whole other thread, done to death already) suggests that the Mach2/PS design may optimise looks and novelty over functionality. I don’t know. Never had either, so can’t offer informed comment.

Fantastic thank you.
Now it all makes sense

[Baxterbasics]

Just to add, for those not in the know, TX in TX200 stands for Turner x2- Ken and another unrelated engineer who worked on the project.

[Rotherham Owl]

Yes, basically.

Long version:

Late 84/early85: HW77 comes out. Immediately wins fans in FT, rapidly knocking off the FWB Sport as rifle of choice.

Late 80s or early 90s: Venom produce tiny numbers of their HW-based specials, the Mach 1 and 2.

Around the same time, airgun genius Ken Turner makes an improved version of the HW77 for his own use, in stainless. By early 1992, Air Arms (recognising that the 77 is both better and cheaper than their fixed-barrel springers, and that the Diana 52 is about as good and cheaper) have bought his design and introduce the TX200.

The TX is an improved, mass production, copy of a Venom 77, to the extent that AirGunner accidentally used a picture of a Venom 77 when announcing it.

The TX trigger is allegedly called “CD” because it was “computer designed”. Most of us think it was called CD because a CD was better than a record (Rekord, get it?).

Later, AA produce a rifle inspired by the Mach2, of which only nine or so were made. The Pro Sport.

When the Venom guys moved to work for Webley, they came up with the Tomahawk and Longbow, which are similarly inspired by the Mach1 break-barrel, but based on the Omega, and ultimately on the Vulcan.

At least, that’s how I remember it. But, definitely, the PS is indeed based on the Mach2. Which itself is the result of a night of passion between an HW77 and a BSA Airsporter.

The fact that most, though not all, serious shooters prefer the TX to the PS (that’s a whole other thread, done to death already) suggests that the Mach2/PS design may optimise looks and novelty over functionality. I don’t know. Never had either, so can’t offer informed comment.

I prefer the long version. Very well put geezer. Some might say the Mach 2 & the Pro Sport were "inspired" by the Airsporter.

[Daveo]

Just to add, for those not in the know, TX in TX200 stands for Turner x2- Ken and another unrelated engineer who worked on the project.

Do you want to elaborate?

[RustyBuzz]

The Mac 1 and 2 were both designed and built by Ken Turner, with input from Dave and Ivan.

Thats why it was possible for Ken to take his designs to Air Arms without things becoming litigious.

[Rotherham Owl]

Just to add, for those not in the know, TX in TX200 stands for Turner x2- Ken and another unrelated engineer who worked on the project.

I am aware that the "T" is for Turner but never heard or read anywhere about the rest. Where did the info come from?

[nurek]

The Mac 1 and 2 were both designed and built by Ken Turner, with input from Dave and Ivan.

Thats why it was possible for Ken to take his designs to Air Arms without things becoming litigious.

Richard is spot on, Ken Turner made his first airgun in 1982 that was a multi pump up. He started making his first break barrel springer that year too, pre dating the Venom guns,. going by dates that Geezer posted. I'll add some links tomorrow to back this up.

[Geezer]

I prefer the long version. Very well put geezer. Some might say the Mach 2 & the Pro Sport were "inspired" by the Airsporter.

Definitely. And thanks for the positive feedback, given that you have forgotten more about these things than I have known.

What a lot of people miss in the history of AA springers was just how expensive the perfected side levers were.

Your recent post of old ads shows that.

The base models were by the mid-80s roughly the same (£80-90) or a little bit above the HW80, well above the Diana 45, HW35, or most Webleys, at £65-75 (bar the Omega, on introduction at an overpriced RRP, often discounted, of £125). And the Camargue/Khamsin cost noticeably more than the 77 and even the FWB Sport. Without the TX, AA would probably not have stayed in business.

[Geezer]

The Mac 1 and 2 were both designed and built by Ken Turner, with input from Dave and Ivan.

Thats why it was possible for Ken to take his designs to Air Arms without things becoming litigious.

Richard is spot on, Ken Turner made his first airgun in 1982 that was a multi pump up. He started making his first break barrel springer that year too, pre dating the Venom guns,. going by dates that Geezer posted. I'll add some links tomorrow to back this up.

I don’t contest that. I just don’t know it. It makes sense to me.