What rifles replaced the Webley Mark III in the 70’s?

[MDriskill]

The Webley Osprey was the rifle that replaced the Mk III as the top-of-the-line, fixed-barrel model. It was a sidelever tap-loader with an extraordinarily heavy barrel, about 3/4” in diameter.

The Hawk barrel-cocking rifles were introduced about the same time as the Osprey; it quickly went through 3 generations of sub-variants.

Though stocks, sights, piston seal materials, and other details continued to evolve, many parts from these guns ended up in later models that lasted well into the 90’s—the Osprey begat the Tracker and Viscount, and the Hawk the Vulcan, Victor, C1, and others.

As this old analog fellow is wont to do, I have to recommend books, LOL: Chris Thrale’s “Webley Air Rifles” is an excellent and well-illustrated history. John Walter’s “The Airgun Book,” editions 1 through 3, is also a super history of this era of European airgunning.

[45flint]

The Webley Osprey was the rifle that replaced the Mk III as the top-of-the-line, fixed-barrel model. It was a sidelever tap-loader with an extraordinarily heavy barrel, about 3/4” in diameter.

The Hawk barrel-cocking rifles were introduced about the same time as the Osprey; it quickly went through 3 generations of sub-variants.

Though stocks, sights, piston seal materials, and other details continued to evolve, many parts from these guns ended up in later models that lasted well into the 90’s—the Osprey begat the Tracker and Viscount, and the Hawk the Vulcan, Victor, C1, and others.

As this old analog fellow is wont to do, I have to recommend books, LOL: Chris Thrale’s “Webley Air Rifles” is an excellent and well-illustrated history. John Walter’s “The Airgun Book,” editions 1 through 3, is also a super history of this era of European airgunning.

Interesting they went to a side lever for their top of the line, were there other side levers at that time?

[MDriskill]

Interesting they went to a side lever for their top of the line, were there other side levers at that time?

Yes. I’d have to look up production date details, but Hammerli and Air Arms both made sidelever, tap-loading springers in the same general time frame.

Again, here’s a great (and reasonably-priced these days) history of that period in airgunning:

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-sear...r/john-walter/

There are 4 editions of "The Airgun Book," published about 1981, 82, 84, and 87. The true nut like me will want all of them of course, but for whatever my opinion is worth, the 3rd one (red cover) is the best all-round for springer history. The 2nd adds very little to the 1st, the 3rd has much new information and some great sidebar articles on obsolete models and company histories. The 4th has many early PCP models but drops much of the older springer info.

I picked up the 3rd Edition on a trip to London in 1985...basically had it memorized before I got home and have been a hopeless addict ever since, LOL...

[Garvin]

I'm not sure you can say the successors to the Mk3 successfully drove it from production so much as economics dictated continued production of a rifle made to such high specs was unsustainable. While Weihrauch, Diana and Feinwerkbau produced well made rifles that were worth the extra they cost if you could afford it, UK manufacturers like Webley and BSA were churning out functional and sometimes beautiful guns (ie Airsporters) that could compete on price but not a lot else. Basically Britain lost the war when it came to airgun manufacture from the 1970s onwards, though it pains me to admit it.

PS Thank god for Air Arms restoring British pride!

[Hsing-ee]

PS Thank god for Air Arms copying/tweaking the HW77 and using Walther barrels!

FIFY innit.

[Garvin]

FIFY innit.

True.

Although I think even Weihrauch was copying the Anschutz 220 sliding breech...

[45flint]

There is usually nothing new under the sun, but nothing wrong with picking a good design and building it with excellence like the Mark III? Or Air Arms.

[andrewM]

I'm not sure you can say the successors to the Mk3 successfully drove it from production so much as economics dictated continued production of a rifle made to such high specs was unsustainable. While Weihrauch, Diana and Feinwerkbau produced well made rifles that were worth the extra they cost if you could afford it, UK manufacturers like Webley and BSA were churning out functional and sometimes beautiful guns (ie Airsporters) that could compete on price but not a lot else. Basically Britain lost the war when it came to airgun manufacture from the 1970s onwards, though it pains me to admit it.

PS Thank god for Air Arms restoring British pride!

Interesting thoughts which are pretty well spot on, I fear. However, our inventiveness also led to the pcp and that was considered, at the time in the late '80s, a real threat to the Germans. As you say, thank Heavens for Air Arms but it is regrettable that we cannot produce the quality barrels the Germans have specialised in manufacturing. If Webley had improved their trigger, their iron sight with a horizontal screw, produced a longer cocking lever and improved power output, along with a proper telescopic ramp and somewhat better accuracy, they could perhaps have kept the Mk3 in production, even at a premium price.

[Garvin]

Interesting thoughts which are pretty well spot on, I fear. However, our inventiveness also led to the pcp and that was considered, at the time in the late '80s, a real threat to the Germans. As you say, thank Heavens for Air Arms but it is regrettable that we cannot produce the quality barrels the Germans have specialised in manufacturing. If Webley had improved their trigger, their iron sight with a horizontal screw, produced a longer cocking lever and improved power output, along with a proper telescopic ramp and somewhat better accuracy, they could perhaps have kept the Mk3 in production, even at a premium price.

I should have said mass-market spring air rifles, Andrew, as that's what I was thinking of.

But you're right of course that early PCPs started coming out of the UK in the 1980s - although the initial idea was centuries old! I suppose the idea of compressed air being ideally suited to target shooting was firmly established by the success of the Walther LGR 10m SSP in the '70s, followed by the German SSPs in the '80s (then CO2 to avoid muscle-draiining pumping).

Good point above that Theoben was truly innovative. Shame the company hasn't lasted.

[45flint]

Interesting thoughts which are pretty well spot on, I fear. However, our inventiveness also led to the pcp and that was considered, at the time in the late '80s, a real threat to the Germans. As you say, thank Heavens for Air Arms but it is regrettable that we cannot produce the quality barrels the Germans have specialised in manufacturing. If Webley had improved their trigger, their iron sight with a horizontal screw, produced a longer cocking lever and improved power output, along with a proper telescopic ramp and somewhat better accuracy, they could perhaps have kept the Mk3 in production, even at a premium price.

Pretty long list of improvements to a rifle they were already loosing money on. When tested my W H B Smith in the 50’s the Mark 3 was the most accurate rifle in the world along with Walther? Had things gone downhill by the 1970s? Actually if all the improvements were made not sure I wouldn’t still go for the original, love the open sights and a telescopic sight is just not right. Lol

[andrewM]

Pretty long list of improvements to a rifle they were already loosing money on. When tested my W H B Smith in the 50’s the Mark 3 was the most accurate rifle in the world along with Walther? Had things gone downhill by the 1970s? Actually if all the improvements were made not sure I wouldn’t still go for the original, love the open sights and a telescopic sight is just not right. Lol

Yes, they would certainly have had to raise the price. I don't think the accuracy deteriorated on the Mk3 in the '70s - at least I have not heard this. 'Button' rifling was introduced, I gather, but the '70s Mk3s were accurate, albeit not as accurate as some of the new rifles that were just appearing, such as the FWB, etc. Like you, I like the open sights.

I was very interested to read your point about WHB Smith and his testing of a '50s Mk3. Do you have a link to that article or can you post it here?

Because it was absolutely still this afternoon, I took my 1973 Mk3 out for an airing. The more practice one has, the easier it becomes to master the iron sights. Excepting for one flier, I reckon my five shot group fell within 3/4 inch at 25 yds and this was without leaning on cushions. It provides considerable satisfaction to master this rifle but it also requires good eyesight!

[trajectory]

The Webley Osprey was the rifle that replaced the Mk III as the top-of-the-line, fixed-barrel model. It was a sidelever tap-loader with an extraordinarily heavy barrel, about 3/4” in diameter.

The Hawk barrel-cocking rifles were introduced about the same time as the Osprey; it quickly went through 3 generations of sub-variants.

Though stocks, sights, piston seal materials, and other details continued to evolve, many parts from these guns ended up in later models that lasted well into the 90’s—the Osprey begat the Tracker and Viscount, and the Hawk the Vulcan, Victor, C1, and others.

As this old analog fellow is wont to do, I have to recommend books, LOL: Chris Thrale’s “Webley Air Rifles” is an excellent and well-illustrated history. John Walter’s “The Airgun Book,” editions 1 through 3, is also a super history of this era of European airgunning.

The Hawk mk 1 was around while the Mk111 was still being advertised around 1973, five years later the Osprey was advertised along with the Mk 11 Hawk, not sure of the exact changeovers & introductions. The Osprey might be ok but a mk111 it ain't , even with a week on the bench.

[MDriskill]

Those lamenting the quality of late Webley rifles might be interested in these quotes from an article entitled, “Swedes Home In On The Tracker,” written by Captain Anders Dahlman, published in the February 1991 issue of “Airgun World:”

“While the same brands of air rifles are on the Swedish market as in the UK, almost every Swedish Airgunners goes for the Webleys. In fact, the .22 Webley Tracker deluxe is the number one air rifle over here. Due to poor balance, simple varnished stocks and two-stage triggers, German air rifles are not popular at all. They have not proven to be that reliable, either. At one time a few Swedes bought HW 77’s, HW 80’s and HW 85’s, but most of them have now switched to the Webley Tracker...

Most Swedes consider the Webleys to be superior when it comes to handling qualities, blueing, fit, finish and balance, and I certainly agree...

The Webley Tracker deluxe has proven utterly reliable and accurate in the hands of Swedish airgunners, and is definitely the country’s most popular air rifle. ... At the last FT competition I attended, more that 85% used these air rifles. The remainder had BSA’s or Air Arms, but you could not find one single HW or Diana. Oh yes, some things are the other way around over here!”

Well all just one fellow’s opinions of course, but rather interesting ones! It’s worth noting that walnut-stocked Trackers seem to have been the main choice. By the way Swedish law at the time banned all air rifle hunting, and limited airguns by velocity rather than muzzle energy. The maximum allowed was 200 m/sec or about 660 FPS, which of course favored larger calibers.

[andrewM]

Very interesting to read what the Swedes were thinking - I thought there was no contest but suddenly, it seems, some of us have perhaps been too condemnatory of our own products in favour of the German competition. That said and even although they were late in coming, I am very pleased with the Omega and Longbow I bought this year.

I wonder why the Swedes disliked two-stage triggers.

[MDriskill]

I wonder why the Swedes disliked two-stage triggers.

The article noted that hunting was very popular in Sweden (in fact the author opined that the place was even more heavily-armed than the US, LOL!), and that most centerfire firearm rifles have single-stage triggers. So shooters there tend to go for airguns that mimic their firearms.

In the Germans’ defense, I believe air rifles there usually have two-stage triggers not due to some misguided mixing of sporting and target-shooting design idioms, as the author implies, but because German military and hunting rifles traditionally have two-stage triggers.