What rifles replaced the Webley Mark III in the 70’s?

[MDriskill]

Interesting they went to a side lever for their top of the line, were there other side levers at that time?

Yes. I’d have to look up production date details, but Hammerli and Air Arms both made sidelever, tap-loading springers in the same general time frame.

Again, here’s a great (and reasonably-priced these days) history of that period in airgunning:

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-sear...r/john-walter/

There are 4 editions of "The Airgun Book," published about 1981, 82, 84, and 87. The true nut like me will want all of them of course, but for whatever my opinion is worth, the 3rd one (red cover) is the best all-round for springer history. The 2nd adds very little to the 1st, the 3rd has much new information and some great sidebar articles on obsolete models and company histories. The 4th has many early PCP models but drops much of the older springer info.

I picked up the 3rd Edition on a trip to London in 1985...basically had it memorized before I got home and have been a hopeless addict ever since, LOL...

[Garvin]

I'm not sure you can say the successors to the Mk3 successfully drove it from production so much as economics dictated continued production of a rifle made to such high specs was unsustainable. While Weihrauch, Diana and Feinwerkbau produced well made rifles that were worth the extra they cost if you could afford it, UK manufacturers like Webley and BSA were churning out functional and sometimes beautiful guns (ie Airsporters) that could compete on price but not a lot else. Basically Britain lost the war when it came to airgun manufacture from the 1970s onwards, though it pains me to admit it.

PS Thank god for Air Arms restoring British pride!

[Hsing-ee]

PS Thank god for Air Arms copying/tweaking the HW77 and using Walther barrels!

FIFY innit.

[Garvin]

FIFY innit.

True.

Although I think even Weihrauch was copying the Anschutz 220 sliding breech...

[45flint]

There is usually nothing new under the sun, but nothing wrong with picking a good design and building it with excellence like the Mark III? Or Air Arms.

[Muskett]

British manufacturing was in free fall in the 70's, the gun trade was one of the casualties. Fantastically high tax rates and cost of labour was the final nail when added to lacklustre management and investment.
Gone were the monopolies of yesteryear when anything made sold.

Lack of imagination and the view pile it high and sell it cheap just didn't cut it with those with disposable incomes wanting more. More was a better trigger and accuracy, which British gunmakers weren't delivering. Far too much relying on old tired designs, or looking for ways to cost cut and use old machinery.
The Spanish and Italians took the shotguns.
The German's gave the rifles that took and utilised the new fangled Jap budget scopes.

Niche makers like Theoben and AA could make better mousetraps and they sold OK. English "Best" rifles and shotguns have never been bettered though many have tried, but they are eye wateringly expensive (so are Prada handbags.)

For the collector then the late 70'a and 80's are a most interesting time. Time of change are. Great fun collecting and seeing what went on. There are a good few rifle to be collected, but not an outrageous amount. Used then few cost much. Mint in box then those are demanding a real premium.
Its certainly fun chasing down good examples.

[Geezer]

Odd Webley MkIII facts.

According to Chris Thrales’ book, the MkIII (Roman numerals, please chaps) was last sold in 1975 by Cogswell and Harrison for £44.50. The replacement Osprey was £44.11 RRP. A similar price for a cheaper to manufacture item.

I suspect that by then Webley were making almost no profit on the MkIII (btw, it took Austin-Morris-BLMC about ten years to work out that every Mini car they had made had sold for less than it actually cost to make! British industry, eh.).

Odder, in 1973, one dealer in London was selling MkIIIs for £28.84, and Airsporters (by then the very unimpressive - yes I have one - Mk5) for more - £29.70.

[andrewM]

I'm not sure you can say the successors to the Mk3 successfully drove it from production so much as economics dictated continued production of a rifle made to such high specs was unsustainable. While Weihrauch, Diana and Feinwerkbau produced well made rifles that were worth the extra they cost if you could afford it, UK manufacturers like Webley and BSA were churning out functional and sometimes beautiful guns (ie Airsporters) that could compete on price but not a lot else. Basically Britain lost the war when it came to airgun manufacture from the 1970s onwards, though it pains me to admit it.

PS Thank god for Air Arms restoring British pride!

Interesting thoughts which are pretty well spot on, I fear. However, our inventiveness also led to the pcp and that was considered, at the time in the late '80s, a real threat to the Germans. As you say, thank Heavens for Air Arms but it is regrettable that we cannot produce the quality barrels the Germans have specialised in manufacturing. If Webley had improved their trigger, their iron sight with a horizontal screw, produced a longer cocking lever and improved power output, along with a proper telescopic ramp and somewhat better accuracy, they could perhaps have kept the Mk3 in production, even at a premium price.

[Garvin]

Interesting thoughts which are pretty well spot on, I fear. However, our inventiveness also led to the pcp and that was considered, at the time in the late '80s, a real threat to the Germans. As you say, thank Heavens for Air Arms but it is regrettable that we cannot produce the quality barrels the Germans have specialised in manufacturing. If Webley had improved their trigger, their iron sight with a horizontal screw, produced a longer cocking lever and improved power output, along with a proper telescopic ramp and somewhat better accuracy, they could perhaps have kept the Mk3 in production, even at a premium price.

I should have said mass-market spring air rifles, Andrew, as that's what I was thinking of.

But you're right of course that early PCPs started coming out of the UK in the 1980s - although the initial idea was centuries old! I suppose the idea of compressed air being ideally suited to target shooting was firmly established by the success of the Walther LGR 10m SSP in the '70s, followed by the German SSPs in the '80s (then CO2 to avoid muscle-draiining pumping).

Good point above that Theoben was truly innovative. Shame the company hasn't lasted.

[45flint]

Interesting thoughts which are pretty well spot on, I fear. However, our inventiveness also led to the pcp and that was considered, at the time in the late '80s, a real threat to the Germans. As you say, thank Heavens for Air Arms but it is regrettable that we cannot produce the quality barrels the Germans have specialised in manufacturing. If Webley had improved their trigger, their iron sight with a horizontal screw, produced a longer cocking lever and improved power output, along with a proper telescopic ramp and somewhat better accuracy, they could perhaps have kept the Mk3 in production, even at a premium price.

Pretty long list of improvements to a rifle they were already loosing money on. When tested my W H B Smith in the 50’s the Mark 3 was the most accurate rifle in the world along with Walther? Had things gone downhill by the 1970s? Actually if all the improvements were made not sure I wouldn’t still go for the original, love the open sights and a telescopic sight is just not right. Lol

[andrewM]

Pretty long list of improvements to a rifle they were already loosing money on. When tested my W H B Smith in the 50’s the Mark 3 was the most accurate rifle in the world along with Walther? Had things gone downhill by the 1970s? Actually if all the improvements were made not sure I wouldn’t still go for the original, love the open sights and a telescopic sight is just not right. Lol

Yes, they would certainly have had to raise the price. I don't think the accuracy deteriorated on the Mk3 in the '70s - at least I have not heard this. 'Button' rifling was introduced, I gather, but the '70s Mk3s were accurate, albeit not as accurate as some of the new rifles that were just appearing, such as the FWB, etc. Like you, I like the open sights.

I was very interested to read your point about WHB Smith and his testing of a '50s Mk3. Do you have a link to that article or can you post it here?

Because it was absolutely still this afternoon, I took my 1973 Mk3 out for an airing. The more practice one has, the easier it becomes to master the iron sights. Excepting for one flier, I reckon my five shot group fell within 3/4 inch at 25 yds and this was without leaning on cushions. It provides considerable satisfaction to master this rifle but it also requires good eyesight!

[45flint]

Yes, they would certainly have had to raise the price. I don't think the accuracy deteriorated on the Mk3 in the '70s - at least I have not heard this. 'Button' rifling was introduced, I gather, but the '70s Mk3s were accurate, albeit not as accurate as some of the new rifles that were just appearing, such as the FWB, etc. Like you, I like the open sights.

I was very interested to read your point about WHB Smith and his testing of a '50s Mk3. Do you have a link to that article or can you post it here?

Because it was absolutely still this afternoon, I took my 1973 Mk3 out for an airing. The more practice one has, the easier it becomes to master the iron sights. Excepting for one flier, I reckon my five shot group fell within 3/4 inch at 25 yds and this was without leaning on cushions. It provides considerable satisfaction to master this rifle but it also requires good eyesight!

The W H B Smith book was published in 1957 and did extensive test of virtually all airguns manufactured in that “golden era”. It is a very interesting read and done with great attention to detail in the testing. A virtual window into that era. The book can be had pretty cheaply on the auction sites got mine for $20 and is totally worth the time and effort to get a copy. They even cover the Falke guns that were short lived as well all the American pump and CO2 guns. Here is the testing write up on the Webley Mark 3. I included pics of the Chrony they used. Times have changed! Given I own a BSA Airsporter of the same era it was fascinating to read there opinion on that vs the Webley. To paraphrase, high marks on innovation but fell short of the Webley in manufacturing quality and performance. Having now shot both of these rifles from that era I would say he was very fair with his assessment.

https://imgur.com/a/Yb3RTZd

[andrewM]

The W H B Smith book was published in 1957 and did extensive test of virtually all airguns manufactured in that “golden era”. It is a very interesting read and done with great attention to detail in the testing. A virtual window into that era. The book can be had pretty cheaply on the auction sites got mine for $20 and is totally worth the time and effort to get a copy. They even cover the Falke guns that were short lived as well all the American pump and CO2 guns. Here is the testing write up on the Webley Mark 3. I included pics of the Chrony they used. Times have changed! Given I own a BSA Airsporter of the same era it was fascinating to read there opinion on that vs the Webley. To paraphrase, high marks on innovation but fell short of the Webley in manufacturing quality and performance. Having now shot both of these rifles from that era I would say he was very fair with his assessment.

https://imgur.com/a/Yb3RTZd

That was kind of you to post that, Flint, and I found it very interesting. It tells us a quite a lot about the backdrop in those days and the competition. It was also interesting that the author should compare the Mk3 with the Airsporter but, doubtless, this was inevitable. Whilst I know nothing of pellet technology, I think it would be fair to say that this has developed in the 60 years or so since that article. I was able to obtain three tins of the old .22 Eley Wasp pellets at Kempton a year or so ago. However, my Mk3 prefers Superdomes and H&N Sniper Light to the old Wasps. Perhaps the skirt of the pellet expands to fit the barrel, as these pellets are the metric 5.5mm.
I wonder what pellets you have tried in your Mk3 and whether you have discovered a similar preference for 5.5mm.
I think it was Lakey, here, who informed me that the Mk3 progressed to 'button' rifling in the late '60s or early '70s. Previously, I think he mentioned that each barrel was hand finished and the rifling would take 90 minutes or so. I wonder if the 'button' rifling made much difference to the accuracy. On the other hand, whilst I had 1in groups in my mind for 25yds, I now think it is feasible to improve on these.
It is a pity the author did not test both rifles, above, alongside the older pre-War BSA Standard. I think this would have had the edge over both the Mk3 and Airsporter. I wonder how the Webley Mk2 Service Rifle would have performed as well.