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Thread: What rifles replaced the Webley Mark III in the 70’s?

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    What rifles replaced the Webley Mark III in the 70’s?

    New to collecting and have enjoyed going back in time with my 1950’s Webley Mark III. Curious what rifles came to the market that successfully drove it from production? Though obviously it was a very dated design at the time.

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    The Webley Osprey was the rifle that replaced the Mk III as the top-of-the-line, fixed-barrel model. It was a sidelever tap-loader with an extraordinarily heavy barrel, about 3/4” in diameter.

    The Hawk barrel-cocking rifles were introduced about the same time as the Osprey; it quickly went through 3 generations of sub-variants.

    Though stocks, sights, piston seal materials, and other details continued to evolve, many parts from these guns ended up in later models that lasted well into the 90’s—the Osprey begat the Tracker and Viscount, and the Hawk the Vulcan, Victor, C1, and others.

    As this old analog fellow is wont to do, I have to recommend books, LOL: Chris Thrale’s “Webley Air Rifles” is an excellent and well-illustrated history. John Walter’s “The Airgun Book,” editions 1 through 3, is also a super history of this era of European airgunning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDriskill View Post
    The Webley Osprey was the rifle that replaced the Mk III as the top-of-the-line, fixed-barrel model. It was a sidelever tap-loader with an extraordinarily heavy barrel, about 3/4” in diameter.

    The Hawk barrel-cocking rifles were introduced about the same time as the Osprey; it quickly went through 3 generations of sub-variants.

    Though stocks, sights, piston seal materials, and other details continued to evolve, many parts from these guns ended up in later models that lasted well into the 90’s—the Osprey begat the Tracker and Viscount, and the Hawk the Vulcan, Victor, C1, and others.

    As this old analog fellow is wont to do, I have to recommend books, LOL: Chris Thrale’s “Webley Air Rifles” is an excellent and well-illustrated history. John Walter’s “The Airgun Book,” editions 1 through 3, is also a super history of this era of European airgunning.

    Interesting they went to a side lever for their top of the line, were there other side levers at that time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 45flint View Post
    Interesting they went to a side lever for their top of the line, were there other side levers at that time?
    Yes. I’d have to look up production date details, but Hammerli and Air Arms both made sidelever, tap-loading springers in the same general time frame.

    Again, here’s a great (and reasonably-priced these days) history of that period in airgunning:

    https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-sear...r/john-walter/

    There are 4 editions of "The Airgun Book," published about 1981, 82, 84, and 87. The true nut like me will want all of them of course, but for whatever my opinion is worth, the 3rd one (red cover) is the best all-round for springer history. The 2nd adds very little to the 1st, the 3rd has much new information and some great sidebar articles on obsolete models and company histories. The 4th has many early PCP models but drops much of the older springer info.

    I picked up the 3rd Edition on a trip to London in 1985...basically had it memorized before I got home and have been a hopeless addict ever since, LOL...
    Last edited by MDriskill; 16-10-2018 at 12:41 PM.

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    I'm not sure you can say the successors to the Mk3 successfully drove it from production so much as economics dictated continued production of a rifle made to such high specs was unsustainable. While Weihrauch, Diana and Feinwerkbau produced well made rifles that were worth the extra they cost if you could afford it, UK manufacturers like Webley and BSA were churning out functional and sometimes beautiful guns (ie Airsporters) that could compete on price but not a lot else. Basically Britain lost the war when it came to airgun manufacture from the 1970s onwards, though it pains me to admit it.

    PS Thank god for Air Arms restoring British pride!
    Last edited by Garvin; 16-10-2018 at 11:57 AM.
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    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvin View Post

    PS Thank god for Air Arms copying/tweaking the HW77 and using Walther barrels!
    FIFY innit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hsing-ee View Post
    FIFY innit.
    True.

    Although I think even Weihrauch was copying the Anschutz 220 sliding breech...
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

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    There is usually nothing new under the sun, but nothing wrong with picking a good design and building it with excellence like the Mark III? Or Air Arms.

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    British manufacturing was in free fall in the 70's, the gun trade was one of the casualties. Fantastically high tax rates and cost of labour was the final nail when added to lacklustre management and investment.
    Gone were the monopolies of yesteryear when anything made sold.

    Lack of imagination and the view pile it high and sell it cheap just didn't cut it with those with disposable incomes wanting more. More was a better trigger and accuracy, which British gunmakers weren't delivering. Far too much relying on old tired designs, or looking for ways to cost cut and use old machinery.
    The Spanish and Italians took the shotguns.
    The German's gave the rifles that took and utilised the new fangled Jap budget scopes.

    Niche makers like Theoben and AA could make better mousetraps and they sold OK. English "Best" rifles and shotguns have never been bettered though many have tried, but they are eye wateringly expensive (so are Prada handbags.)

    For the collector then the late 70'a and 80's are a most interesting time. Time of change are. Great fun collecting and seeing what went on. There are a good few rifle to be collected, but not an outrageous amount. Used then few cost much. Mint in box then those are demanding a real premium.
    Its certainly fun chasing down good examples.

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    Odd Webley MkIII facts.

    According to Chris Thrales’ book, the MkIII (Roman numerals, please chaps) was last sold in 1975 by Cogswell and Harrison for £44.50. The replacement Osprey was £44.11 RRP. A similar price for a cheaper to manufacture item.

    I suspect that by then Webley were making almost no profit on the MkIII (btw, it took Austin-Morris-BLMC about ten years to work out that every Mini car they had made had sold for less than it actually cost to make! British industry, eh.).

    Odder, in 1973, one dealer in London was selling MkIIIs for £28.84, and Airsporters (by then the very unimpressive - yes I have one - Mk5) for more - £29.70.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvin View Post
    I'm not sure you can say the successors to the Mk3 successfully drove it from production so much as economics dictated continued production of a rifle made to such high specs was unsustainable. While Weihrauch, Diana and Feinwerkbau produced well made rifles that were worth the extra they cost if you could afford it, UK manufacturers like Webley and BSA were churning out functional and sometimes beautiful guns (ie Airsporters) that could compete on price but not a lot else. Basically Britain lost the war when it came to airgun manufacture from the 1970s onwards, though it pains me to admit it.

    PS Thank god for Air Arms restoring British pride!
    Interesting thoughts which are pretty well spot on, I fear. However, our inventiveness also led to the pcp and that was considered, at the time in the late '80s, a real threat to the Germans. As you say, thank Heavens for Air Arms but it is regrettable that we cannot produce the quality barrels the Germans have specialised in manufacturing. If Webley had improved their trigger, their iron sight with a horizontal screw, produced a longer cocking lever and improved power output, along with a proper telescopic ramp and somewhat better accuracy, they could perhaps have kept the Mk3 in production, even at a premium price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    Odd Webley MkIII facts.

    According to Chris Thrales’ book, the MkIII (Roman numerals, please chaps)
    I am curious to know why Roman numerals, when it is printed in the handbook and stamped on the rifle "Mk3".

    Mark.
    Last edited by Modski66; 17-10-2018 at 05:56 AM.
    Too many guns, or not enough time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Modski66 View Post
    I am curious to know why Roman numerals, when it is printed in the handbook and stamped on the rifle "Mk3".

    Mark.
    Stamped on the rifle is pretty compelling!

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewM View Post
    Interesting thoughts which are pretty well spot on, I fear. However, our inventiveness also led to the pcp and that was considered, at the time in the late '80s, a real threat to the Germans. As you say, thank Heavens for Air Arms but it is regrettable that we cannot produce the quality barrels the Germans have specialised in manufacturing. If Webley had improved their trigger, their iron sight with a horizontal screw, produced a longer cocking lever and improved power output, along with a proper telescopic ramp and somewhat better accuracy, they could perhaps have kept the Mk3 in production, even at a premium price.
    I should have said mass-market spring air rifles, Andrew, as that's what I was thinking of.

    But you're right of course that early PCPs started coming out of the UK in the 1980s - although the initial idea was centuries old! I suppose the idea of compressed air being ideally suited to target shooting was firmly established by the success of the Walther LGR 10m SSP in the '70s, followed by the German SSPs in the '80s (then CO2 to avoid muscle-draiining pumping).

    Good point above that Theoben was truly innovative. Shame the company hasn't lasted.
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDriskill View Post
    The Webley Osprey was the rifle that replaced the Mk III as the top-of-the-line, fixed-barrel model. It was a sidelever tap-loader with an extraordinarily heavy barrel, about 3/4” in diameter.

    The Hawk barrel-cocking rifles were introduced about the same time as the Osprey; it quickly went through 3 generations of sub-variants.

    Though stocks, sights, piston seal materials, and other details continued to evolve, many parts from these guns ended up in later models that lasted well into the 90’s—the Osprey begat the Tracker and Viscount, and the Hawk the Vulcan, Victor, C1, and others.

    As this old analog fellow is wont to do, I have to recommend books, LOL: Chris Thrale’s “Webley Air Rifles” is an excellent and well-illustrated history. John Walter’s “The Airgun Book,” editions 1 through 3, is also a super history of this era of European airgunning.

    The Hawk mk 1 was around while the Mk111 was still being advertised around 1973, five years later the Osprey was advertised along with the Mk 11 Hawk, not sure of the exact changeovers & introductions. The Osprey might be ok but a mk111 it ain't , even with a week on the bench.

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