Is professional tuning worth it?

[Daveo]

Bear with me on this fellas....
I've been shooting Airguns since I was 8 so nearly 30 years
I've messed about with loads of different Spring guns.
Replacing springs, seals and fitting drop in kits from various sources.
Then I got a lathe and started making my own guides etc.
So compared to lots of people I think I know a fair bit about air rifles.
But compared to lots of people on here I know very little
Certainly compared to professional tuners I no nothing.
I know what I consider to be a gun that shoots well.
I've never shot a proper professionally tuned Spring gun but I want to
No one I know has one and most airgun clubs I've been to are full of standard gun shooters.
If I take the plunge and spend £4-5-600 on a tuned springer will I know the difference immediately over one I've fettled?
I'm not claiming to be an expert gun tuner at all it's more about the level at which I shoot.
I'm a fairly average shot with a Spring gun.
So the question stands is a tuned gun worth it for me?
Is there genuinely a big difference in tuned, home fettled and factory ?
Could there be a bit of this must shoot well because it's been tuned? Like a placebo ?
Thanks for reading my dronings if you got this far

[u.k.neil]

Visit the next Springer Bash and you will have the opportunity to shoot many highly tuned springers.


Neil

[Shed tuner]

yup, try before you buy.

It also depends a lot on the gun you are starting with... if the base gun is a MK2 Tx200, or an HW99S, there is much less room for improvment than with say an HW80, or any of the big Dianas.

Also consider the middle choice, of fitting a professional tuning kit (e.g. from Tinbum)...

Rgds,
JB

[Daveo]

yup, try before you buy.

It also depends a lot on the gun you are starting with... if the base gun is a MK2 Tx200, or an HW99S, there is much less room for improvment than with say an HW80, or any of the big Dianas.

Also consider the middle choice, of fitting a professional tuning kit (e.g. from Tinbum)...

Rgds,
JB

Currently I'm rocking a full length HW77 in .22 and a prosport in .177
But if I was buying a tuned gun I think I'd go for a '97 in .22
Part of the reason for wanting a tuned gun is to see what witchcraft has gone on inside if I'm honest.
Not to copy it just to understand it and to see if it blows what I can achieve out of the water
Also what is a tuning kit?
If it's a well fitting guide and top hat made from acetal and a decent Spring, I can and have made quite a few kits of my own in that case.
I'm interested in what Tony wall or any other pro does with the kits.
I imagine they levitate a couple of feet above the gun and say this needs a thou taking off the piston seal and Spring with 3/4" of preload.....

[TonyL]

With your level of experience, Daveo, and the equipment at your disposal, there's a very good chance that you could achieve the same, or similar, results from a tune as some professional tunes.

I'm not exactly sure to what extent the SFS guns are tuned, but I have tried one or two and they shot very nicely.

Now, back in the heyday of spring gun shooting, Venom (and very possibly Airmasters) would divert plenty of attention to ensuring that the cylinder was straight and true and then check the concentricity of the piston rod. All this on even a "standard" tune. The full on conversions, like the Lazaglide, took this up to another level and were re-engineered. V-Mach will do the same nowadays.

I believe, also, that a responsible professional tune will then devote much time (Steve Pope refers to it as "bench time") testing power and consistency with a range of pellets. They will have the fine art of individual piston seal sizing down to a fine art and will have a range of springs at their disposal to undertake this fine tuning.

Although, like your self, I've fettled a fair few springers, my Venoms and V-Machs remain intact as they left the Pope Dynasty, as I actually like that little air of mystery and it just seems right to me to leave them alone, enjoy them and revel in their lovely shooting manners.

The single biggest factors in making a springer feel more refined are de-burring and removing any twang. After this, many may well struggle to tell the difference in various internal set-ups and personal preference also plays a part. Some like a softer cycle, others quick and snappy. The acid test really has to be accuracy and the ease in accessing that accuracy to suit the required use. So, for a HFT rifle, hold sensitivty will be a far bigger issue than for a rifle that's always shot from a bench in the same position.

Hope this helps a little and I love all my springers - Venom and V-Mach tuned, one of them a Lazaglide, some with V-Mach kits fitted by myself and some with Mr Bum's guides.

[TonyL]

Some of the work that some of our esteemed "shed tuners" can turn out can be awesomely impressive....sleeved down cylinders and smaller bore pistons, short stroke conversions, different piston seals, playing with transfer port dimensions, different piston materials giving different weights etc etc. But the key ingredients will be the knowledge and necessary equipment (obviously), an inquiring mindset and the time to build, test, strip, improve, test, strip etc etc., to achieve empirical results as opposed to theoretical ideals.

[Daveo]

With your level of experience, Daveo, and the equipment at your disposal, there's a very good chance that you could achieve the same, or similar, results from a tune as some professional tunes.

I'm not exactly sure to what extent the SFS guns are tuned, but I have tried one or two and they shot very nicely.

Now, back in the heyday of spring gun shooting, Venom (and very possibly Airmasters) would divert plenty of attention to ensuring that the cylinder was straight and true and then check the concentricity of the piston rod. All this on even a "standard" tune. The full on conversions, like the Lazaglide, took this up to another level and were re-engineered. V-Mach will do the same nowadays.

I believe, also, that a responsible professional tune will then devote much time (Steve Pope refers to it as "bench time") testing power and consistency with a range of pellets. They will have the fine art of individual piston seal sizing down to a fine art and will have a range of springs at their disposal to undertake this fine tuning.

Although, like your self, I've fettled a fair few springers, my Venoms and V-Machs remain intact as they left the Pope Dynasty, as I actually like that little air of mystery and it just seems right to me to leave them alone, enjoy them and revel in their lovely shooting manners.

The single biggest factors in making a springer feel more refined are de-burring and removing any twang. After this, many may well struggle to tell the difference in various internal set-ups and personal preference also plays a part. Some like a softer cycle, others quick and snappy. The acid test really has to be accuracy and the ease in accessing that accuracy to suit the required use. So, for a HFT rifle, hold sensitivty will be a far bigger issue than for a rifle that's always shot from a bench in the same position.

Hope this helps a little and I love all my springers - Venom and V-Mach tuned, one of them a Lazaglide, some with V-Mach kits fitted by myself and some with Mr Bum's guides.

Excellent read thanks
I remember buying a v-Mach kit for a tx200 .22 that was very low on power from the factory the kit made it too far the other way.
I spoke to Steve pope who sent me a different piston seal and the gun went from 13ftlb to 11.5.
I was baffled I was expecting a different Spring not a seal.
That's the kind of knowledge that intrigues me and I guess that's the bench time you are talking about.

[Shed tuner]

Also what is a tuning kit?
If it's a well fitting guide and top hat made from acetal and a decent Spring, I can and have made quite a few kits of my own in that case.

I agree and this is half the issue, But I was thinking more of piston nose extensions to shorten the stroke to volumes optomised for Uk power levels as well. And springs selected for shot cycle (oftern softer and longer for larger bores to counteract bouce), and possibly superior quality piston seals.

However, if you have a lathe, some skill and some idea of what you are doing, I'd suggest you could get 90% of the benefit yourself for 5% of the cost (and your time, of course)

[Daveo]

I agree and this is half the issue, But I was thinking more of piston nose extensions to shorten the stroke to volumes optomised for Uk power levels as well. And springs selected for shot cycle (oftern softer and longer for larger bores to counteract bouce), and possibly superior quality piston seals.

However, if you have a lathe, some skill and some idea of what you are doing, I'd suggest you could get 90% of the benefit yourself for 5% of the cost (and your time, of course)

That's fascinating stuff.
I know people alter transfer ports too on some guns.
That's where my limited knowledge runs out.
So is this advanced stuff more about how the shot cycle feels, sort of tayloring it for the shooter?

[Daveo]

Visit the next Springer Bash and you will have the opportunity to shoot many highly tuned springers.


Neil

I intend to, the next one clashes with family commitments or I would have made the journey.
Good advice thanks

[VALE BOY]

Visit the next Springer Bash and you will have the opportunity to shoot many highly tuned springers.


Neil

I intend to, the next one clashes with family commitments or I would have made the journey.
Good advice thanks

Hi Dave, the first Boinger Bash of 2019 should take place around the beginning of April so keep your eye on the next Boinger Bash thread which will commence sometime after the Halloween one next week and the date will be confirmed.
As Neil says it's well worth a visit and you'll get the opportunity to shoot other folks pride and joy and get to know a bit about the history of them as well.
A visit there is highly recommended.

Atb,
Graeme

[luckymjr]

I've just bought a brand new HW99s Imp from SFS and I an honestly say that It Is the best springer that I have ever shot. I have been shooting PCP's for over 20 years and this tuned rifle has really got my enthusiasm back for shooting springers,

John

[Muskett]

I'll add my two cents, though I can't say I've had that many tuned rifles, but I have shot a good few rifles. Presently have a HW95 V-Match factory tuned and a HW77 Short Stroke Venom.

In the early days circa 1980's when budget Jap scopes arrived on these shores in numbers the accuracy beyond farmyard ranges was less than perfect. Match 6m and 10 rifles were fantastic, but nothing with 12ft/lbs.
So people looked at what could shoot straight and the HW35 was it! Much must be that trigger.
The early tuners found that the HW35 all shot differently and tuning was hit and miss. FWB Sorts even more tricky. Very frustrating at times and many a colourful word spoken I should think. You could say the early tuners cut their teeth trying to work out how to better what the factory did. A debur and polish was a start. Transfer ports experiments too with differing results. It seemed no two guns were the same when tuning. The factory rifles weren't built that well! Pellets weren't that great. Chronos results said it all.
The HW77 arrived and that was pretty good out of the box. New machinery must have helped. Tuning was easier and just that little bit smoother.

Those early tuners had many a frustration I suspect. But lessons were learnt. Not every factory rifle started true. Plenty top tuners were machining parts to be straight. Then the lazaglide. A lot of knowledge was gained and far greater understanding of what was happening and what effect was got from different stages and parts. Long story short its the reason AA can make the TX.

Much now is what start stock rifle is chosen. A little luck of out of the box. Drop in tuning kits upgrade parts that should compliment the actions. For the outlay a small but significant improvement should be seen. Not a lot.
A full tuning factory shop should ensure that a rifle leaves about as good as it can get. Its best potential found. Each tuner has their angle of how to get there. Each model of rifle reacts differently to a tune. Lastly there are a couple of different "feels" like short or long stroke. The cost in time to do all the work will add up and the result smooth but its all still a spring compressor contraption.

Tune or no tune, the rifle is not going to shoot itself. So much is in the marksman, fit, and familiarisation of it all. Tuning a spring gun does not turn the rifle into a PCP. Nor does it make one model of rifle behave exactly like another model; the how to get the best out of the model is about the owner working out how.
Much to get any springer to hit the centre is working out what the rifle likes. Heavy, and heavily tuned, should make that easier, the best behaved rifle are heavy and smooth.

Is it all worth it?
Its an extension of the hobby. I think, as anyone progress from factory to home tuned and beyond, new knowledge is found. Jumping straight to a tuned springer misses some important lessons. Many a PCP or rimfire shots struggle with spring guns because they don't appreciate whats going on with a spring 12ft/lbs system.
As no two springers are the same then there is a hobby in that, and how different models react to tuning, and the pure challenge of how good a rifle can be made to shoot.

The numbers don't really add up due to the man hours put into tinkering. High level tinkering but the results are small increments of improvements. If the result is pellet on pellet at 25m then the rest is for the fun of it all. Its a hobby so what has the money got to do with it?
When buying an established tuners custom tune then the value is in the tune and most importantly the relationship with the tuner. The value is buying their best effort, and their reputation's best effort.
If their best effort isn't hugely different from your best effort then so what? You still have bought their best effort which is recognisable if they are a known name.
Sadly, tune be it drop in or a named high profile tuner rarely retains much value once put on the second hand market. Your custom tuned rarely hold value for others much. Certainly unlikely to get your money back. So tuning investment is for you and no one else.

Lastly, cost of living is high enough. If you have the spare disposable income I can think of loads of ways to blow what the cost of tuning costs. The payback on having a really well tuned and working great rifle, the pure confidence of it all, is well worth the outlay if you like that kind of thing. All depends how "into it all" you are.
Much the same can be said about a well tinkered and working PCP. Heck, if you are a shooter a well sorted combo, whatever the calibre or system, is fantastic. What final result is, and always will be, the bod behind the trigger.

[Daveo]

Thank you everyone for some interesting reading and very valid points
I'm taking away from this that if I was unable to mess with guns myself having someone else do it would probably be a good choice.
A professional could probably get more out of my gun than I can, but what if it's not to my liking?
And what would I actually gain?
As part of the pleasure for me in owning a gun is fiddling about with them I think I'll just carry on as I have been.
I intend to attend a boinger bash to find out how crap my own guns actually are in the future.
Cheers chaps

[Weasle]

I'll add my two cents, though I can't say I've had that many tuned rifles, but I have shot a good few rifles. Presently have a HW95 V-Match factory tuned and a HW77 Short Stroke Venom.

In the early days circa 1980's when budget Jap scopes arrived on these shores in numbers the accuracy beyond farmyard ranges was less than perfect. Match 6m and 10 rifles were fantastic, but nothing with 12ft/lbs.
So people looked at what could shoot straight and the HW35 was it! Much must be that trigger.
The early tuners found that the HW35 all shot differently and tuning was hit and miss. FWB Sorts even more tricky. Very frustrating at times and many a colourful word spoken I should think. You could say the early tuners cut their teeth trying to work out how to better what the factory did. A debur and polish was a start. Transfer ports experiments too with differing results. It seemed no two guns were the same when tuning. The factory rifles weren't built that well! Pellets weren't that great. Chronos results said it all.
The HW77 arrived and that was pretty good out of the box. New machinery must have helped. Tuning was easier and just that little bit smoother.

Those early tuners had many a frustration I suspect. But lessons were learnt. Not every factory rifle started true. Plenty top tuners were machining parts to be straight. Then the lazaglide. A lot of knowledge was gained and far greater understanding of what was happening and what effect was got from different stages and parts. Long story short its the reason AA can make the TX.

Much now is what start stock rifle is chosen. A little luck of out of the box. Drop in tuning kits upgrade parts that should compliment the actions. For the outlay a small but significant improvement should be seen. Not a lot.
A full tuning factory shop should ensure that a rifle leaves about as good as it can get. Its best potential found. Each tuner has their angle of how to get there. Each model of rifle reacts differently to a tune. Lastly there are a couple of different "feels" like short or long stroke. The cost in time to do all the work will add up and the result smooth but its all still a spring compressor contraption.

Tune or no tune, the rifle is not going to shoot itself. So much is in the marksman, fit, and familiarisation of it all. Tuning a spring gun does not turn the rifle into a PCP. Nor does it make one model of rifle behave exactly like another model; the how to get the best out of the model is about the owner working out how.
Much to get any springer to hit the centre is working out what the rifle likes. Heavy, and heavily tuned, should make that easier, the best behaved rifle are heavy and smooth.

Is it all worth it?
Its an extension of the hobby. I think, as anyone progress from factory to home tuned and beyond, new knowledge is found. Jumping straight to a tuned springer misses some important lessons. Many a PCP or rimfire shots struggle with spring guns because they don't appreciate whats going on with a spring 12ft/lbs system.
As no two springers are the same then there is a hobby in that, and how different models react to tuning, and the pure challenge of how good a rifle can be made to shoot.

The numbers don't really add up due to the man hours put into tinkering. High level tinkering but the results are small increments of improvements. If the result is pellet on pellet at 25m then the rest is for the fun of it all. Its a hobby so what has the money got to do with it?
When buying an established tuners custom tune then the value is in the tune and most importantly the relationship with the tuner. The value is buying their best effort, and their reputation's best effort.
If their best effort isn't hugely different from your best effort then so what? You still have bought their best effort which is recognisable if they are a known name.
Sadly, tune be it drop in or a named high profile tuner rarely retains much value once put on the second hand market. Your custom tuned rarely hold value for others much. Certainly unlikely to get your money back. So tuning investment is for you and no one else.

Lastly, cost of living is high enough. If you have the spare disposable income I can think of loads of ways to blow what the cost of tuning costs. The payback on having a really well tuned and working great rifle, the pure confidence of it all, is well worth the outlay if you like that kind of thing. All depends how "into it all" you are.
Much the same can be said about a well tinkered and working PCP. Heck, if you are a shooter a well sorted combo, whatever the calibre or system, is fantastic. What final result is, and always will be, the bod behind the trigger.

A great read...well written piece.
The Key point is the last one.....
''What final result is, and always will be, the bod behind the trigger''
Oh so true...……
Cheers Steve