Is professional tuning worth it?

[Daveo]

yup, try before you buy.

It also depends a lot on the gun you are starting with... if the base gun is a MK2 Tx200, or an HW99S, there is much less room for improvment than with say an HW80, or any of the big Dianas.

Also consider the middle choice, of fitting a professional tuning kit (e.g. from Tinbum)...

Rgds,
JB

Currently I'm rocking a full length HW77 in .22 and a prosport in .177
But if I was buying a tuned gun I think I'd go for a '97 in .22
Part of the reason for wanting a tuned gun is to see what witchcraft has gone on inside if I'm honest.
Not to copy it just to understand it and to see if it blows what I can achieve out of the water
Also what is a tuning kit?
If it's a well fitting guide and top hat made from acetal and a decent Spring, I can and have made quite a few kits of my own in that case.
I'm interested in what Tony wall or any other pro does with the kits.
I imagine they levitate a couple of feet above the gun and say this needs a thou taking off the piston seal and Spring with 3/4" of preload.....

[TonyL]

With your level of experience, Daveo, and the equipment at your disposal, there's a very good chance that you could achieve the same, or similar, results from a tune as some professional tunes.

I'm not exactly sure to what extent the SFS guns are tuned, but I have tried one or two and they shot very nicely.

Now, back in the heyday of spring gun shooting, Venom (and very possibly Airmasters) would divert plenty of attention to ensuring that the cylinder was straight and true and then check the concentricity of the piston rod. All this on even a "standard" tune. The full on conversions, like the Lazaglide, took this up to another level and were re-engineered. V-Mach will do the same nowadays.

I believe, also, that a responsible professional tune will then devote much time (Steve Pope refers to it as "bench time") testing power and consistency with a range of pellets. They will have the fine art of individual piston seal sizing down to a fine art and will have a range of springs at their disposal to undertake this fine tuning.

Although, like your self, I've fettled a fair few springers, my Venoms and V-Machs remain intact as they left the Pope Dynasty, as I actually like that little air of mystery and it just seems right to me to leave them alone, enjoy them and revel in their lovely shooting manners.

The single biggest factors in making a springer feel more refined are de-burring and removing any twang. After this, many may well struggle to tell the difference in various internal set-ups and personal preference also plays a part. Some like a softer cycle, others quick and snappy. The acid test really has to be accuracy and the ease in accessing that accuracy to suit the required use. So, for a HFT rifle, hold sensitivty will be a far bigger issue than for a rifle that's always shot from a bench in the same position.

Hope this helps a little and I love all my springers - Venom and V-Mach tuned, one of them a Lazaglide, some with V-Mach kits fitted by myself and some with Mr Bum's guides.

[TonyL]

Some of the work that some of our esteemed "shed tuners" can turn out can be awesomely impressive....sleeved down cylinders and smaller bore pistons, short stroke conversions, different piston seals, playing with transfer port dimensions, different piston materials giving different weights etc etc. But the key ingredients will be the knowledge and necessary equipment (obviously), an inquiring mindset and the time to build, test, strip, improve, test, strip etc etc., to achieve empirical results as opposed to theoretical ideals.

[Shed tuner]

. But the key ingredients will be the knowledge and necessary equipment (obviously), an inquiring mindset and the time to build, test, strip, improve, test, strip etc etc., to achieve empirical results as opposed to theoretical ideals.

yup, but it's amazing once you know what works and all those experiments are done, how well it can be applied to different guns. I knew my 24mm HW80 was going to work, and it is awesome (even thought I say so myself) Sleeving down excessively large ports is just a no-brainer now I know the range to work in (3mm is seldom far out on anything but the shortest ports)

[Wilderbeest]

IS PROFESSIONAL TUNING WORTH IT?

Starting point ; Air rifle under 12ft/lbs maximum output.

End Point ; Air Rifle under 12ft/lbs maximum output , but can be mechanically more refined to use.

Cost ; £100's .

You have to fill in the next bit ; {Yes........ (No)..

[rapidresponse1]

id say yes

[Zomboid]

Is it worth it? Yes.

What does it mean?

I have three home "tuned" rifles. Two BSAs which are from the 1980s. Easy to work on and not hard to get shooting nicer. And a HW77 which all I did was detwang it. Again, relatively easy but nothing ground breaking. Cost was low and not too long to do - although the BSA Mercury was a full rebuild. The comments I have received from other people are very complimentary. An engineer at Bisley was most impressed with my 77. Doing it yourself gives you a connection with the rifle you don't get if someone else does it.

In contrast my other guns have all had the SFS treatment and the difference is notable. Triggers are crisper, the actions even smoother and they are a genuine pleasure to shoot.

That for me is the most important thing: A Pleasure to Shoot.

Ok I had to wait a while for them to be done but that's the rub isn't it. Some things are worth waiting for.

If you spend even more you can go crazy with all sorts of alterations, but I think the saying about "diminishing returns" runs true. There is a point when some things cannot be improved anymore. So it depends on what you are starting with - an 80s HW77 or a BSA Lightning?

[Seaneverz]

I got a brand new hw97 and fitted new guides top hat etc de burr polished short stroked and thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. I then got a Paul short stage 3 tuned hw97 with titanium piston etc and the difference is massive and I would definitely say it is worth it. Don’t get me wrong I didn’t get the work done just came across the gun but I can now appreciate the work that has been done compared to my original gun. End of the day both guns are better than out the box in terms of smoothness and recoil.

[bozzer]

... and the difference is massive ...

See ... that's the sort of comment that gets springer shooters rushing out to get their rifle tuned that way.

I'm never knocking the work that the pro tuners do. I think I judge a rifle on it's ability to shoot accurately at the distances that I need it to. For me, it is a tool that is used to put pellets where I want them to go.

So this has always been my view on the mega tunes ... If I have a springer that is cocking and shooting smoothly with no spring noise or other mechanical noises, and it's putting pellets say inside 18mm (5p) at 45 yards and my best PCP isn't doing much better, then I don't see how further tuning can make a 'massive' difference.

So we must be down to people referring to shot cycle or maybe hold sensitivity.

I have often asked for examples of accuracy tests that show groups considerably improved after a mega tune. Most will say that it's this magic phrase 'Hold Sensitivity' that is improved.

So has anyone actually done any tests regarding 'Hold Sensitivity'? How would we actually do that?

Maybe this is worthy of another thread.

[TonyL]

yup, but it's amazing once you know what works and all those experiments are done, how well it can be applied to different guns. I knew my 24mm HW80 was going to work, and it is awesome (even thought I say so myself)

Absolutely, Jon, and all down to experience and that never ending quest for springer nirvana.

[Daveo]

With your level of experience, Daveo, and the equipment at your disposal, there's a very good chance that you could achieve the same, or similar, results from a tune as some professional tunes.

I'm not exactly sure to what extent the SFS guns are tuned, but I have tried one or two and they shot very nicely.

Now, back in the heyday of spring gun shooting, Venom (and very possibly Airmasters) would divert plenty of attention to ensuring that the cylinder was straight and true and then check the concentricity of the piston rod. All this on even a "standard" tune. The full on conversions, like the Lazaglide, took this up to another level and were re-engineered. V-Mach will do the same nowadays.

I believe, also, that a responsible professional tune will then devote much time (Steve Pope refers to it as "bench time") testing power and consistency with a range of pellets. They will have the fine art of individual piston seal sizing down to a fine art and will have a range of springs at their disposal to undertake this fine tuning.

Although, like your self, I've fettled a fair few springers, my Venoms and V-Machs remain intact as they left the Pope Dynasty, as I actually like that little air of mystery and it just seems right to me to leave them alone, enjoy them and revel in their lovely shooting manners.

The single biggest factors in making a springer feel more refined are de-burring and removing any twang. After this, many may well struggle to tell the difference in various internal set-ups and personal preference also plays a part. Some like a softer cycle, others quick and snappy. The acid test really has to be accuracy and the ease in accessing that accuracy to suit the required use. So, for a HFT rifle, hold sensitivty will be a far bigger issue than for a rifle that's always shot from a bench in the same position.

Hope this helps a little and I love all my springers - Venom and V-Mach tuned, one of them a Lazaglide, some with V-Mach kits fitted by myself and some with Mr Bum's guides.

Excellent read thanks
I remember buying a v-Mach kit for a tx200 .22 that was very low on power from the factory the kit made it too far the other way.
I spoke to Steve pope who sent me a different piston seal and the gun went from 13ftlb to 11.5.
I was baffled I was expecting a different Spring not a seal.
That's the kind of knowledge that intrigues me and I guess that's the bench time you are talking about.

[Barryg]

I spoke to Steve pope who sent me a different piston seal and the gun went from 13ftlb to 11.5.
I was baffled I was expecting a different Spring not a seal.

Just out of interest was the different seal blue not green?

[Daveo]

Just out of interest was the different seal blue not green?

Both seals were blue From what I can remember

[bozzer]

Brilliant post by Richard above.

"Is pro tuning worth it?"

What does " Worth it" mean?

If practically a rifle's job is to hit what you aim at ... then a pro tune won't allow you to hit more things than a drop in kit or home tune.

Human beings ... weird things. They don't just want or need something to be practical. They need to know that it's a quality thing ... a nice thing ... a better than average thing ... it makes them feel good about themselves.

A basic car gets you from A to B. An expensive car still only gets you from A to B, and probably no quicker, but there may be luxuries that make the journey a tad more pleasant. A 3 quid watch tells the time. A £10k watch still only tells the time, but some people feel good having a quality watch on their wrist.

Some people just like to know that they own an air rifle that is as good as it can be.

Also ... conversation topic. Let's be honest ... most people on here and at clubs etc can't shoot for sh!t. They aren't horrendous ... but they aren't great either. Most people don't go to clubs to see if their mega tune rifle is 5% more accurate or if they get three extra targets on the courses that year. Most go to get out of the house and meet mates and drink tea and talk absolute b0ll0x about air rifles. It's therapy. Some people pay therapists, some people hug a tree, some kick a ball around ... and some go and talk to their mates in a wood or an indoor club and blast a few targets. The real fun, for most, isn't actually pulling the trigger and hitting things ... it's the talking b0ll0x. So having a mega pro tuned rifle and handing it to your mates and saying ... " Just had that tuned by Springporn Tuning ... it cocks and shoots superb with hardly a nudge " ... It's therapy.

Don't tell anyone ... but FT and HFT shooters don't really have to be wandering around the woods with loads of mega kit either. The same blokes were winning with the same scores over 10 years ago with kit that cost half the price or less. It's that therapy thing again. Most of the blokes carrying £3k worth of gear around would hit just as many targets with 500 quids worth ... but now and then ... they drop a long target ... and a little drop of wee indicates that every penny of that £3k was worth it ( to them ) ... and that's all that counts.

[Shed tuner]

very true Boz