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Thread: Is professional tuning worth it?

  1. #1
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    Is professional tuning worth it?

    Bear with me on this fellas....
    I've been shooting Airguns since I was 8 so nearly 30 years
    I've messed about with loads of different Spring guns.
    Replacing springs, seals and fitting drop in kits from various sources.
    Then I got a lathe and started making my own guides etc.
    So compared to lots of people I think I know a fair bit about air rifles.
    But compared to lots of people on here I know very little
    Certainly compared to professional tuners I no nothing.
    I know what I consider to be a gun that shoots well.
    I've never shot a proper professionally tuned Spring gun but I want to
    No one I know has one and most airgun clubs I've been to are full of standard gun shooters.
    If I take the plunge and spend £4-5-600 on a tuned springer will I know the difference immediately over one I've fettled?
    I'm not claiming to be an expert gun tuner at all it's more about the level at which I shoot.
    I'm a fairly average shot with a Spring gun.
    So the question stands is a tuned gun worth it for me?
    Is there genuinely a big difference in tuned, home fettled and factory ?
    Could there be a bit of this must shoot well because it's been tuned? Like a placebo ?
    Thanks for reading my dronings if you got this far
    Good deals with:
    Dunn220, Leon, Bullcelt, stink£r, u.k.neil, supersharpshoot, william and airgun god, GEORGEY, telgun, Simon P and stubbs4612, Wellhouse0, harpo

  2. #2
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    Visit the next Springer Bash and you will have the opportunity to shoot many highly tuned springers.


    Neil
    Current airguns:- Steyr LG110: Steyr LP10: Air Arms HFT500: Weihrauch97 fully customised.

  3. #3
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    yup, try before you buy.

    It also depends a lot on the gun you are starting with... if the base gun is a MK2 Tx200, or an HW99S, there is much less room for improvment than with say an HW80, or any of the big Dianas.

    Also consider the middle choice, of fitting a professional tuning kit (e.g. from Tinbum)...

    Rgds,
    JB
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

  4. #4
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    I think that sometimes we believe tuners have some special magic powers they are able to wield at will.
    I believe that most people who have some basic knowledge of engineering tools, and especially someone like yourself with access to advanced tooling is able to make a pretty good job of tuning a springer.
    It is important you understand the rationale of what you are doing, and what you hope to achieve, at the end of the day there is no magic involved.
    I have used guns tuned by Venom and Sandwell field sports, either result could be achieved at home. I would add that some "professional" tunes leave a lot to be desired, at least if you do it yourself you know exactly whats been done.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by u.k.neil View Post
    Visit the next Springer Bash and you will have the opportunity to shoot many highly tuned springers.


    Neil
    I intend to, the next one clashes with family commitments or I would have made the journey.
    Good advice thanks
    Good deals with:
    Dunn220, Leon, Bullcelt, stink£r, u.k.neil, supersharpshoot, william and airgun god, GEORGEY, telgun, Simon P and stubbs4612, Wellhouse0, harpo

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by p.j. View Post
    I think that sometimes we believe tuners have some special magic powers they are able to wield at will.
    I believe that most people who have some basic knowledge of engineering tools, and especially someone like yourself with access to advanced tooling is able to make a pretty good job of tuning a springer.
    It is important you understand the rationale of what you are doing, and what you hope to achieve, at the end of the day there is no magic involved.
    I have used guns tuned by Venom and Sandwell field sports, either result could be achieved at home. I would add that some "professional" tunes leave a lot to be desired, at least if you do it yourself you know exactly whats been done.
    If someone sends a tired '77 to v-Mach* the results should be fantastic but a used pro sport?
    This is my issue.
    I've got a HW77 and a prosport and I've gone through both of them.
    I've fitted new springs and guides and seals etc
    Both shoot well (I think) the prosport it's definitely a smoother gun but that doesn't really translate to better accuracy.
    Both are accurate.
    But a hw77 that shot like a prosport?? That would be cool.

    *other tuners are available
    Good deals with:
    Dunn220, Leon, Bullcelt, stink£r, u.k.neil, supersharpshoot, william and airgun god, GEORGEY, telgun, Simon P and stubbs4612, Wellhouse0, harpo

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shed tuner View Post
    yup, try before you buy.

    It also depends a lot on the gun you are starting with... if the base gun is a MK2 Tx200, or an HW99S, there is much less room for improvment than with say an HW80, or any of the big Dianas.

    Also consider the middle choice, of fitting a professional tuning kit (e.g. from Tinbum)...

    Rgds,
    JB
    Currently I'm rocking a full length HW77 in .22 and a prosport in .177
    But if I was buying a tuned gun I think I'd go for a '97 in .22
    Part of the reason for wanting a tuned gun is to see what witchcraft has gone on inside if I'm honest.
    Not to copy it just to understand it and to see if it blows what I can achieve out of the water
    Also what is a tuning kit?
    If it's a well fitting guide and top hat made from acetal and a decent Spring, I can and have made quite a few kits of my own in that case.
    I'm interested in what Tony wall or any other pro does with the kits.
    I imagine they levitate a couple of feet above the gun and say this needs a thou taking off the piston seal and Spring with 3/4" of preload.....
    Good deals with:
    Dunn220, Leon, Bullcelt, stink£r, u.k.neil, supersharpshoot, william and airgun god, GEORGEY, telgun, Simon P and stubbs4612, Wellhouse0, harpo

  8. #8
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    With your level of experience, Daveo, and the equipment at your disposal, there's a very good chance that you could achieve the same, or similar, results from a tune as some professional tunes.

    I'm not exactly sure to what extent the SFS guns are tuned, but I have tried one or two and they shot very nicely.

    Now, back in the heyday of spring gun shooting, Venom (and very possibly Airmasters) would divert plenty of attention to ensuring that the cylinder was straight and true and then check the concentricity of the piston rod. All this on even a "standard" tune. The full on conversions, like the Lazaglide, took this up to another level and were re-engineered. V-Mach will do the same nowadays.

    I believe, also, that a responsible professional tune will then devote much time (Steve Pope refers to it as "bench time") testing power and consistency with a range of pellets. They will have the fine art of individual piston seal sizing down to a fine art and will have a range of springs at their disposal to undertake this fine tuning.

    Although, like your self, I've fettled a fair few springers, my Venoms and V-Machs remain intact as they left the Pope Dynasty, as I actually like that little air of mystery and it just seems right to me to leave them alone, enjoy them and revel in their lovely shooting manners.

    The single biggest factors in making a springer feel more refined are de-burring and removing any twang. After this, many may well struggle to tell the difference in various internal set-ups and personal preference also plays a part. Some like a softer cycle, others quick and snappy. The acid test really has to be accuracy and the ease in accessing that accuracy to suit the required use. So, for a HFT rifle, hold sensitivty will be a far bigger issue than for a rifle that's always shot from a bench in the same position.

    Hope this helps a little and I love all my springers - Venom and V-Mach tuned, one of them a Lazaglide, some with V-Mach kits fitted by myself and some with Mr Bum's guides.
    THE BOINGER BASH AT QUIGLEY HOLLOW. MAKING GREAT MEMORIES SINCE 15th JUNE, 2013.
    NEXT EVENT :- May 4/5, 2024.........BOING!!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daveo View Post
    Also what is a tuning kit?
    If it's a well fitting guide and top hat made from acetal and a decent Spring, I can and have made quite a few kits of my own in that case.
    I agree and this is half the issue, But I was thinking more of piston nose extensions to shorten the stroke to volumes optomised for Uk power levels as well. And springs selected for shot cycle (oftern softer and longer for larger bores to counteract bouce), and possibly superior quality piston seals.

    However, if you have a lathe, some skill and some idea of what you are doing, I'd suggest you could get 90% of the benefit yourself for 5% of the cost (and your time, of course)
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

  10. #10
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    P.S.

    Some of the work that some of our esteemed "shed tuners" can turn out can be awesomely impressive....sleeved down cylinders and smaller bore pistons, short stroke conversions, different piston seals, playing with transfer port dimensions, different piston materials giving different weights etc etc. But the key ingredients will be the knowledge and necessary equipment (obviously), an inquiring mindset and the time to build, test, strip, improve, test, strip etc etc., to achieve empirical results as opposed to theoretical ideals.
    THE BOINGER BASH AT QUIGLEY HOLLOW. MAKING GREAT MEMORIES SINCE 15th JUNE, 2013.
    NEXT EVENT :- May 4/5, 2024.........BOING!!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyL View Post
    With your level of experience, Daveo, and the equipment at your disposal, there's a very good chance that you could achieve the same, or similar, results from a tune as some professional tunes.

    I'm not exactly sure to what extent the SFS guns are tuned, but I have tried one or two and they shot very nicely.

    Now, back in the heyday of spring gun shooting, Venom (and very possibly Airmasters) would divert plenty of attention to ensuring that the cylinder was straight and true and then check the concentricity of the piston rod. All this on even a "standard" tune. The full on conversions, like the Lazaglide, took this up to another level and were re-engineered. V-Mach will do the same nowadays.

    I believe, also, that a responsible professional tune will then devote much time (Steve Pope refers to it as "bench time") testing power and consistency with a range of pellets. They will have the fine art of individual piston seal sizing down to a fine art and will have a range of springs at their disposal to undertake this fine tuning.

    Although, like your self, I've fettled a fair few springers, my Venoms and V-Machs remain intact as they left the Pope Dynasty, as I actually like that little air of mystery and it just seems right to me to leave them alone, enjoy them and revel in their lovely shooting manners.

    The single biggest factors in making a springer feel more refined are de-burring and removing any twang. After this, many may well struggle to tell the difference in various internal set-ups and personal preference also plays a part. Some like a softer cycle, others quick and snappy. The acid test really has to be accuracy and the ease in accessing that accuracy to suit the required use. So, for a HFT rifle, hold sensitivty will be a far bigger issue than for a rifle that's always shot from a bench in the same position.

    Hope this helps a little and I love all my springers - Venom and V-Mach tuned, one of them a Lazaglide, some with V-Mach kits fitted by myself and some with Mr Bum's guides.
    Excellent read thanks
    I remember buying a v-Mach kit for a tx200 .22 that was very low on power from the factory the kit made it too far the other way.
    I spoke to Steve pope who sent me a different piston seal and the gun went from 13ftlb to 11.5.
    I was baffled I was expecting a different Spring not a seal.
    That's the kind of knowledge that intrigues me and I guess that's the bench time you are talking about.
    Good deals with:
    Dunn220, Leon, Bullcelt, stink£r, u.k.neil, supersharpshoot, william and airgun god, GEORGEY, telgun, Simon P and stubbs4612, Wellhouse0, harpo

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shed tuner View Post
    I agree and this is half the issue, But I was thinking more of piston nose extensions to shorten the stroke to volumes optomised for Uk power levels as well. And springs selected for shot cycle (oftern softer and longer for larger bores to counteract bouce), and possibly superior quality piston seals.

    However, if you have a lathe, some skill and some idea of what you are doing, I'd suggest you could get 90% of the benefit yourself for 5% of the cost (and your time, of course)
    That's fascinating stuff.
    I know people alter transfer ports too on some guns.
    That's where my limited knowledge runs out.
    So is this advanced stuff more about how the shot cycle feels, sort of tayloring it for the shooter?
    Good deals with:
    Dunn220, Leon, Bullcelt, stink£r, u.k.neil, supersharpshoot, william and airgun god, GEORGEY, telgun, Simon P and stubbs4612, Wellhouse0, harpo

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daveo View Post
    So is this advanced stuff more about how the shot cycle feels, sort of tayloring it for the shooter?
    That's certainly part of the mix.. excessive piston bounce is just that, but balancing the stroke for faster vs softer can be a little more subjective. Smaller ports are a little softer unless the piston bounces too much, which can be counteracted with a longer, softer spring.. all interrelated. I sleeve down the TPs (from =5.5 x 12mm ) on old BSA standards and gain a foot pound and a much better shot cycle, less recoil, less slam. Extreme example, and they were made that way for a reason (the tap is reamed thorugh into the bore through the port, so the port is the same size as the calibre) but you get the idea.
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyL View Post
    . But the key ingredients will be the knowledge and necessary equipment (obviously), an inquiring mindset and the time to build, test, strip, improve, test, strip etc etc., to achieve empirical results as opposed to theoretical ideals.
    yup, but it's amazing once you know what works and all those experiments are done, how well it can be applied to different guns. I knew my 24mm HW80 was going to work, and it is awesome (even thought I say so myself) Sleeving down excessively large ports is just a no-brainer now I know the range to work in (3mm is seldom far out on anything but the shortest ports)
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

  15. #15
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    IS PROFESSIONAL TUNING WORTH IT?

    Starting point ; Air rifle under 12ft/lbs maximum output.

    End Point ; Air Rifle under 12ft/lbs maximum output , but can be mechanically more refined to use.

    Cost ; £100's .

    You have to fill in the next bit ; {Yes........ (No)..
    Peace through superior fire power!

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