Is professional tuning worth it?

[TonyL]

yup, but it's amazing once you know what works and all those experiments are done, how well it can be applied to different guns. I knew my 24mm HW80 was going to work, and it is awesome (even thought I say so myself)

Absolutely, Jon, and all down to experience and that never ending quest for springer nirvana.

[Thegreg]

I think that sometimes we believe tuners have some special magic powers they are able to wield at will.
I believe that most people who have some basic knowledge of engineering tools, and especially someone like yourself with access to advanced tooling is able to make a pretty good job of tuning a springer.
It is important you understand the rationale of what you are doing, and what you hope to achieve, at the end of the day there is no magic involved.
I have used guns tuned by Venom and Sandwell field sports, either result could be achieved at home. I would add that some "professional" tunes leave a lot to be desired, at least if you do it yourself you know exactly whats been done.

Exactly what that man said.

Unless the work involves re-engineering original components of the rifle (which I believe the likes of Venom etc. did) there's nothing a "professional" tuner can do that you can't do yourself, especially if you have machine tools.

As much as some people like to make out, there isn't a black art involved in wielding wet & dry paper, or slapping moly grease on a spring. Have confidence in your own ability and crack on.

Cheers
Greg

[Shed tuner]

Exactly what that man said.

Unless the work involves re-engineering original components of the rifle (which I believe the likes of Venom etc. did) there's nothing a "professional" tuner can do that you can't do yourself, especially if you have machine tools.

As much as some people like to make out, there isn't a black art involved in wielding wet & dry paper, or slapping moly grease on a spring. Have confidence in your own ability and crack on.

Cheers
Greg

I think that's exactly the point, spring guides, wet and dry, bit of moly, then DIY, for sure.

But if you do want machining work, stroke or port changes, piston weight reductions, piston head conversions or compression cylinder sleeves, then whilst it's entirely possible to do yourself with the right tools (as I and many others on here do), a little more knowledge and experience is needed to get the best results.

[RichardH]

I think that's exactly the point, spring guides, wet and dry, bit of moly, then DIY, for sure.

But if you do want machining work, stroke or port changes, piston weight reductions, piston head conversions or compression cylinder sleeves, then whilst it's entirely possible to do yourself with the right tools (as I and many others on here do), a little more knowledge and experience is needed to get the best results.

To be fair Jon is bang on here, there’s nothing that Vmach do that any competent machine shop or skilled amateur at home can’t reproduce for 10% of the cost, however the big difference is firstly the experimentation these guys have done to come to their own tune “specification” which the home tuners are often just seeking to copy and the second is the final finish of the modified parts and guns which Vmach do very very well

It’s simple work in engineering terms but much of the cost is in knowing which bits to tweak and then doing it with a final finish way better than that from the factory while covering the r&d time and making a profit, let’s face it there are no tuners running Ferrari’s

I have seen many sublime shooting home modified guns that look like a bag of nails as well as loads more that have been absolutely ruined by well meaning amateurs.

People paying the professionals keeps money going into new r&d driving things forwards but essentially the amateur with a lathe can achieve 95% of the same results.

[TonyL]

A most excellent post, sir.

[Barryg]

I spoke to Steve pope who sent me a different piston seal and the gun went from 13ftlb to 11.5.
I was baffled I was expecting a different Spring not a seal.

Just out of interest was the different seal blue not green?

[charub]

To be fair Jon is bang on here, there’s nothing that Vmach do that any competent machine shop or skilled amateur at home can’t reproduce for 10% of the cost, however the big difference is firstly the experimentation these guys have done to come to their own tune “specification” which the home tuners are often just seeking to copy and the second is the final finish of the modified parts and guns which Vmach do very very well

It’s simple work in engineering terms but much of the cost is in knowing which bits to tweak and then doing it with a final finish way better than that from the factory while covering the r&d time and making a profit, let’s face it there are no tuners running Ferrari’s

I have seen many sublime shooting home modified guns that look like a bag of nails as well as loads more that have been absolutely ruined by well meaning amateurs.

People paying the professionals keeps money going into new r&d driving things forwards but essentially the amateur with a lathe can achieve 95% of the same results.

No - but a red Porsche here and there!!

[Rickenbacker]

No - but a red Porsche here and there!!

Don't go calling the red Porsche owner a professional tuner - that's not fair!

[RichardH]

No - but a red Porsche here and there!!

Is that success though...

[charub]

Is that success though...

No - but it is a good example of buying a factory item that works better after a drop in kit!

[Geezer]

This is an area where the internet caused a minor revolution.

Pre-internet, the professional tuners like Bowkett, Venom, Airmasters and many others ruled the roost. They were usually a bit vague about the processes they used to improve performance. Sometimes, it was a simple de-burr, polish and lube. Sometimes, much more.

The non-pro guys tended to do what they did on their own in sheds. And only tell their mates, in the pub. Some had it right, some not.

The internet meant that the “pub” group in which the shed guys were chatting became a potential global audience, for free.

So we have moved from individuals with no audience bar a metaphorical saloon bar, and businesses with an interest in trade secrets controlling information to an environment when a bloke in a shed can discover and then globally share his insights for free.

As others have said, if you have the basic tools and knowledge (and time and space) you can do a 90% effective tune. The extra 10% remains challenging, requiring specialist kit, or savvy, or experience.

And if you don’t have the tools, knowledge etc, you are at best doing a service, even if you spend £70 on the replacement bits. Though that service/tune may still improve performance.

Assuming you start with something decent, the more you invest in money, tools, and engineering skill, the less you get out over time. But, assuming you invest them wisely, you still get something better.

[tinbum]

No - but a red Porsche here and there!!

Don't go calling the red Porsche owner a professional tuner - that's not fair!

Is that success though...

[IMG][/IMG]

[Rickenbacker]

(it's not a "proper" Porsche, neither).

[Daveo]

Just out of interest was the different seal blue not green?

Both seals were blue From what I can remember

[bozzer]

Brilliant post by Richard above.

"Is pro tuning worth it?"

What does " Worth it" mean?

If practically a rifle's job is to hit what you aim at ... then a pro tune won't allow you to hit more things than a drop in kit or home tune.

Human beings ... weird things. They don't just want or need something to be practical. They need to know that it's a quality thing ... a nice thing ... a better than average thing ... it makes them feel good about themselves.

A basic car gets you from A to B. An expensive car still only gets you from A to B, and probably no quicker, but there may be luxuries that make the journey a tad more pleasant. A 3 quid watch tells the time. A £10k watch still only tells the time, but some people feel good having a quality watch on their wrist.

Some people just like to know that they own an air rifle that is as good as it can be.

Also ... conversation topic. Let's be honest ... most people on here and at clubs etc can't shoot for sh!t. They aren't horrendous ... but they aren't great either. Most people don't go to clubs to see if their mega tune rifle is 5% more accurate or if they get three extra targets on the courses that year. Most go to get out of the house and meet mates and drink tea and talk absolute b0ll0x about air rifles. It's therapy. Some people pay therapists, some people hug a tree, some kick a ball around ... and some go and talk to their mates in a wood or an indoor club and blast a few targets. The real fun, for most, isn't actually pulling the trigger and hitting things ... it's the talking b0ll0x. So having a mega pro tuned rifle and handing it to your mates and saying ... " Just had that tuned by Springporn Tuning ... it cocks and shoots superb with hardly a nudge " ... It's therapy.

Don't tell anyone ... but FT and HFT shooters don't really have to be wandering around the woods with loads of mega kit either. The same blokes were winning with the same scores over 10 years ago with kit that cost half the price or less. It's that therapy thing again. Most of the blokes carrying £3k worth of gear around would hit just as many targets with 500 quids worth ... but now and then ... they drop a long target ... and a little drop of wee indicates that every penny of that £3k was worth it ( to them ) ... and that's all that counts.