Are tap loaders inheritently less efficient?

[andrewM]

- Iirc, some Webley taploaders already had a tapered end to the tap to do just this. I know this, because the tap on my Tracker had been installed the wrong way around some day in its life. Causing loading issues (pellet wouldnt drop into the tap completely, needed pushing. Turned it around and pellets dropped nicely all the way, just like with my other taploaders, the ospreys and mk3).
-Tapered may have a downside though. If the breech taperes it more than the barrel needs than you'll loose accuracy too because the pellet cant follow the barrels' twist accurately anymore. So there has to be very tight tolerances between breech/tap ánd barrel diameter too

-I agree that taploaders have disadvantages. Yes the early Webleys were stunningly made. Especially before 60s. No doubt tolerances were very tight.
But stíll, you dó get wear over time because of use. And therefor its possible for tap misalignment to become an issue. Tap misalignment ruins accuracy.

-You also loose power because of the 'hop' necessary from tap to barrel. To get similar power as non-taploaders you'll need to compensate for that (stronger spring etc). That makes a taploader harsher to shoot (more recoil). Allthough imo more noticeable after mk3 imo (80s guns like Osprey) allthough that may also simply be because those generate more power.

Cockingwise I like taploaders. No open breech to get yr fingers stuck
Dont think its hard for a good/new mk3 to win against a HW77 finish wise. The mk3 first models were so much more better made. HW77 is 'simple' mass production

That is an informative response, which clears up some of the issues over which there was a query. I think I have heard the same about the loading taps being very slightly tapered. Indeed, this explains why some slightly wider pellets will not drop completely into a loading tap but often sit towards the top of it. As you reflect, however, if the taper is too severe, then the pellet will not be gripped by the rifling within the barrel. I wonder if the rifling commenced at the start of the barrel or, perhaps, a mm or two into the barrel itself. In the latter situation, the rifling might have been very slightly narrower than the tapering within the tap facility, to enhance the grip and the twist effect.

[45flint]

What is the most powerful tap loader? My Webley Mark3 and my Airsporter will do 10 FPE, assume there were ones with more power?

[hwtyger]

I only know Webleys. I think the 80s Webleys (Viscount/Osprey/Tracker) may be able to get nearer to 12Ftp than 10Ftp, but they will never be powerhouses. That said, I think my mk3 .22 was first oversprung by the previous owner, doing more than 10Ftp. Of course it wasnt nice to shoot or cock.
None of the Webley taploaders was suitable for FAC levels. I doubt any taploader or 'indirect loader' (like the Eclipse) is. Póssible, but no high power levels and no fun shooting

A non-twist pre-chamber is more of a firearms thing. My breakbarrels anyway, all start their twist immediately. Only my Diana 31 T05 had some sort of a pre-barrel chamber of a few mm slightly larger in diameter. (for easy pellet loading?). It may be different for taploaders, hard to see with tap fitted

[dvd]

With regards to matching the tap with the action, Falke tap loaders are numbered with the same number on the tap and action, which implies they were manufactured as one unit. I believe most taps start out as perfectly good, but lack of correct lubrication combined with dust and grit, are the perfect mix to cause wear on the considerably large tapered bearing surfaces. One sees many damaged tap- screws that owners mistakenly overtighten to try and cure leaky taps. While it may help for a while, it also pulls the tap further in and it becomes misaligned with the bore.In spite of the inherent shortcomings mentioned with taps, I like their safety aspect and a small leak usually does not detract much from their function.

[Drew451]

What is the most powerful tap loader? My Webley Mark3 and my Airsporter will do 10 FPE, assume there were ones with more power?

The 80s Air Arms sidelevers are the most powerful tap loaders that I know of

[Vic Thompson]

Regarding power of Taploaders : around thirty years ago someone asked me to check the power of a Pre War BSA Underlever in 0.25 cal, according to my equipment it was running at well over 15ftlbs (can't remember the exact figure). Also, from memory I've had early Airsporters (Mk 1 and 2's) that were capable of exceeding 12ftlbs (albeit by not as much as the previous example).

I know little about the design of Airguns but my "Gut Feeling" is that with today's technology an efficient Tap Loader Air Rifle with a 12ftlb capability could readily be designed and made, but the production costs could well make it a non-starter financially.

Vic Thompson.

[45flint]

The 80s Air Arms sidelevers are the most powerful tap loaders that I know of

That’s interesting I’ve never seen these in the US? I can imagine that Air Arm’s tap loaders would be top quality.

[dvd]

Regarding power of Taploaders : around thirty years ago someone asked me to check the power of a Pre War BSA Underlever in 0.25 cal, according to my equipment it was running at well over 15ftlbs (can't remember the exact figure). Also, from memory I've had early Airsporters (Mk 1 and 2's) that were capable of exceeding 12ftlbs (albeit by not as much as the previous example).

I know little about the design of Airguns but muy "Gut Feeling" is that with today's technology an efficient Tap Loader Air Rifle with a 12ftlb capability could readily be designed and made, but the production costs could well make it a non-starter financially.

Vic Thompson.

Perhaps a small version of the rotating ball valves used for fluid control can be used. They have a rotating chrome-plated sphere with a hole through it and it moves on synthetic rings. It still calls for added engineering processes which pushes the manufacture price up, but for this application of safety, accurate pellet alignment and airtightness, I think it is better than a tapered tap because there is no metal to metal wear and if it ever leaks, just replace the self contained valve.

[Garvin]

While on the subject of tap to bore alignment... one of the strangest inventions in the history of airguns, it seems to me and IIRC, was a tap which could be adjusted to take up wear, but by doing so pulled the tap out of alignment with the bore!

The inventor was none other than Lincoln Jeffries himself, a proven genius yet in this case it appears he took his eye off the ball.

What was he thinking? Presumably he must have felt that a leaking tap was more serious than a clipped pellet, since it's impossible that he wouldn't have thought through the consequences of his design.

These turn up often enough to suggest a lot were made before the design was dropped in favour of the familiar non-adjustable taps, which were then used for decades afterwards.

[andrewM]

What is the most powerful tap loader? My Webley Mark3 and my Airsporter will do 10 FPE, assume there were ones with more power?

My 1922/3 BSA is performing at approx. 11.3 with two or three pellet varieties.

I gather this was quite par for the course and, occasionally at the time, power exceeded 12 ft/lb - so I have read on this site.

Garvin's photograph is interesting; I have never seen that before but what was going on in the inventor's mind, if there was a possibility of a clipped pellet?!

[baz]

My boy had a Tracker at one time, I never tried it but he shot a lot of Rabbits with it, a while back I bought 2 Trackers and I was pleasantly surprised with the accuracy, one in particular is pellet on pellet at 25yds, really sweet to shoot and doing 11ftlb with JSB RS

I also have a couple of AA sidelever, they are a bit more lively to shoot but I haven't done anything to them yet, I love the build quality of these sidelevers

I have a couple of MK1 and 2 Airsporters, again so much better finish than the late Airsporters, similar to BSA firearms, of which I am a big fan

[Hsing-ee]

Most pawerful tap loaders - Airsporter S, BSF S55, Original Diana 50T01 ... when 'tuned' could do over 12 fpe - but not much, a couple of fpe at most.

[baz]

Out of interest I put my borescope in the barrel of .22 Tracker and must say the tap seems like a perfect fit when closed, I can't try the 177 as borescope won't fit the bore

[maximus]

I have added o rings to the tap of one of my airsporter's, wouldn't do more than 8ft lbs before but now have it at about 11. This is done with 2 grooves around the circumstance then joined up above and below the pellet hole on both sides. The o ring is squeezed into kind of a square shape, one around each end of the pellet hole. Has worked well so far. An nc machine could do a circular seal path in a production situation I'm sure. After that and alignment there is no reason why they can't be as efficient as anything else IMO.