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Thread: What premium would you put on the first/last of a model?

  1. #1
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    What premium would you put on the first/last of a model?

    This query was sparked by watchaparts post below regarding last serial numbers. Earlier this year I bid on Webley MkIII which claimed to be the earliest known with the serial number 22. I can't remember what I bid on it, just that it wasn't enough. I do remember racking my brains in an effort to value it. I wasn't able to attend the auction so it was a case of cross my fingers and email a commission bid. As I did that I was well aware that 'auction fever' on the day made success unlikely with those in the room having the advantage of handling the piece whereas I was bidding blind. The estimate was about £165 to £220 and the rifle was described as in good working order and condition by an auctioneer who I've always found to be prophetic. unfortunately I wasn't able to print the results so I don't know what it achieved on the day although I'm fairly sure at least a couple of BBSers will know, even if they weren't present.

    That's been the long way round to ask the title of the post. Bear in mind that it is only the Earliest Known until another comes along with 21 possibilities out there. I'd welcome any thoughts or comments on the topic.

    ATB, Mick
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    Hi Mick

    Sorry i've no idea but I do know who has the last ever BSA Airsporter produced, It was confirmed by BSA to have been the last they ever made!!

    Actually, Thinking about it, It could be right here in my house as i'm looking after some air rifles for a friend for a few weeks!!



    John
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  3. #3
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    I have seen Number 2 Mick, but although the numbers may be low, I was told by a man that knows 'Webley MK3 Ser Numbers are confusing'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Binners View Post
    I have seen Number 2 Mick, but although the numbers may be low, I was told by a man that knows 'Webley MK3 Ser Numbers are confusing'
    Thanks, Pete. If nothing else that's softened the blow of missing it. I don't know the provenance of 'mine' but I suspect it may have come from a world-class collection that the owner is very wisely bleeding onto the market in penny numbers. Several I've bought have had what I presume were collection identifiers in tiny script.

    Logic and Webley are words rarely used in the same sentence but its a bit like living in a 300 year-old house. I know full well that there'd be a really good reason for the back door to be 5'6" high and 3'6" wide but the man who could tell me will have been dead since the Regency.

    Anyway I was only checking my mail while I had a cup of coffee. I'll go back to my shed and carry on* with the time machine now. If I'm successful I'll see you last week, Mick.

    I'll be the one with the big grin and a barrowload of IMD .25s.

    *That's carry on in a nonsexual sense, as in continue development.
    When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns .

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by walnutfarmmick View Post
    This query was sparked by watchaparts post below regarding last serial numbers. Earlier this year I bid on Webley MkIII which claimed to be the earliest known with the serial number 22. I can't remember what I bid on it, just that it wasn't enough. I do remember racking my brains in an effort to value it. I wasn't able to attend the auction so it was a case of cross my fingers and email a commission bid. As I did that I was well aware that 'auction fever' on the day made success unlikely with those in the room having the advantage of handling the piece whereas I was bidding blind. The estimate was about £165 to £220 and the rifle was described as in good working order and condition by an auctioneer who I've always found to be prophetic. unfortunately I wasn't able to print the results so I don't know what it achieved on the day although I'm fairly sure at least a couple of BBSers will know, even if they weren't present.

    That's been the long way round to ask the title of the post. Bear in mind that it is only the Earliest Known until another comes along with 21 possibilities out there. I'd welcome any thoughts or comments on the topic.

    ATB, Mick
    One of those 21 possibilities is this one, serial no.3 according to the owner.
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    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  6. #6
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    The premium is in the "talking point". What premium is between the collectors and what value they put on such trivia. I think condition is more important.
    1st and last do hold a little more if it can be verified. Usually these stay in house, or to manufacturers example store, or as presentation pieces. But make enough guns and then "another" gun for keeping is cash tied up and space, so often released.

    Nice to have as a talking point. Does need some proof and provenance to justify though.

  7. #7
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    I think also that condition is more important than a low number, PROVIDED the low numbered rifle and the one higher are mechanically identical. I suppose a gun with a single digit number would command a premium over a similar but identical later version, and the level of that premium would be personal to a purchaser on the day?
    A genuine No.1 would be quite a different proposition however.

    As an aside I remember a well known dealer telling me that some Webley air rifles sold in the late 1980's/early 90's were often made with more than one serial number 1 ! Presumably so several No.1's could be presented to 'friends' of the company?

    Rather cynical really, and there are no doubt owners of No.1 Webley Eclipse I think may have been one example, who are rejoicing in the albeit mistaken knowledge they own the very first.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by slug-gun View Post
    I think also that condition is more important than a low number, PROVIDED the low numbered rifle and the one higher are mechanically identical. I suppose a gun with a single digit number would command a premium over a similar but identical later version, and the level of that premium would be personal to a purchaser on the day?
    A genuine No.1 would be quite a different proposition however.

    As an aside I remember a well known dealer telling me that some Webley air rifles sold in the late 1980's/early 90's were often made with more than one serial number 1 ! Presumably so several No.1's could be presented to 'friends' of the company?

    Rather cynical really, and there are no doubt owners of No.1 Webley Eclipse I think may have been one example, who are rejoicing in the albeit mistaken knowledge they own the very first.
    I agree wholeheartedly with the first paragraph. The same goes with calibre, when some place a premium on .177 over .22 when more .22 versions of a particular model were originally made. For example, I was once told by Webley's ex Works Manager the company made .22 Mark 3 air rifles at a ratio of 9:1 compared with .177 versions. I'll choose the rifle in better condition, all else being equal.

    I have also heard rumours of several No 1s being stamped up but have never some across two identically numbered rifles. As Slug Gun says, perhaps they are part of collections whose owners believe them to be genuine No 1s.

    John

  9. #9
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    The only similarly numbered items I know of are two Webley Junior pistols with the number 1, of which I have one of the examples and I do know who has the other one.

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    pjbingham is offline My mother was flexible,but couldn't do Thursdays
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    Not sure I’d pay more for the last of anything but I certainly would for an early low ser number. A friend of mine has an early Webley Mk3 (ser num 42) and I know he wouldn’t even consider offers less than £500 for it, there may be a couple of earlier ones known but I’d say any below 100 are of more interest and would command a higher price.

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    A

    About 25%+ on very early or late serial numbers.

    To widen the discussion, a general principle is that the original model of anything made over a long run is desirable, as the original. And the last model is often desirable as the perfected model. But that is not always the case. Other factors intrude.

    A car example would be the good old Morris Minor. The original side-valve 1948 is very desirable as the original. The 1970s 1073cc model is the most usable. The late 50s/60s 948cc model is arguably the best compromise between usability and history, but, last time I checked, does not command a premium.

    Compare airguns:

    - Airsporter Mk1 is better made than later guns and original. Mk2 is very nearly as good, or as good. All other MKs are much worse, except the late Mk7 RB2, which commands a massive (100-200%) premium over a regular Mk6.

    - Webley III. First is best. Last is worst. First gets collector points. Best compromise, though, if you intend to shoot it, is the Series 3 and 4.

    - Post war Diana 35 and 50. The early 1950s guns are lovely. The last ones aren’t. Oddly, pricing isn’t much if at all different between the 70s guns and the final 80s guns.

    - Webley Vulcans. I see no marked price difference across the three series, although the first one ought to have collector value, and the third series, especially the KS and later Stingray (“Stingray, Stingray, bah bah bah bah”, sorry, I’m a Gerry Anderson fan) are better shooters.

    - Diana LP5s. I think the early post-war wood grip guns get a small premium from those who know they exist. Despite varying degrees of rarity, I see no particular sign that the later brown and grey plastic grip versions, or the later alloy-frame LP5Gs (or LP6s) are worth much more or less than each other; perhaps because the later guns hold better than the earlier ones, perhaps because no one cares enough to create a competitive market.

    - FWB Sports. The Mk2 is the best. Fact.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    About 25%+ on very early or late serial numbers.

    To widen the discussion, a general principle is that the original model of anything made over a long run is desirable, as the original. And the last model is often desirable as the perfected model. But that is not always the case. Other factors intrude.

    A car example would be the good old Morris Minor. The original side-valve 1948 is very desirable as the original. The 1970s 1073cc model is the most usable. The late 50s/60s 948cc model is arguably the best compromise between usability and history, but, last time I checked, does not command a premium.

    Compare airguns:

    - Airsporter Mk1 is better made than later guns and original. Mk2 is very nearly as good, or as good. All other MKs are much worse, except the late Mk7 RB2, which commands a massive (100-200%) premium over a regular Mk6.

    - Webley III. First is best. Last is worst. First gets collector points. Best compromise, though, if you intend to shoot it, is the Series 3 and 4.

    - Post war Diana 35 and 50. The early 1950s guns are lovely. The last ones aren’t. Oddly, pricing isn’t much if at all different between the 70s guns and the final 80s guns.

    - Webley Vulcans. I see no marked price difference across the three series, although the first one ought to have collector value, and the third series, especially the KS and later Stingray (“Stingray, Stingray, bah bah bah bah”, sorry, I’m a Gerry Anderson fan) are better shooters.

    - Diana LP5s. I think the early post-war wood grip guns get a small premium from those who know they exist. Despite varying degrees of rarity, I see no particular sign that the later brown and grey plastic grip versions, or the later alloy-frame LP5Gs (or LP6s) are worth much more or less than each other; perhaps because the later guns hold better than the earlier ones, perhaps because no one cares enough to create a competitive market.

    - FWB Sports. The Mk2 is the best. Fact.
    Now we've widened the discussion and cars have been mentioned I'm reminded of a pal who really values low mileage light commercials. I'm afraid I can't really see the point because all you can do is look at it and talk about it. Without devaluing it anyway. I've another mate who gave about £22,000 for a 1970-ish A60 van with under 2000 miles on the clock about 18 months ago. To my way of thinking that's a lot of money for something you hardly dare use.

    ATB, Mick
    When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns .

  13. #13
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    Is there a room in your own house that you don't use?

    Gold? Can't eat it so whats the point? It holds value and looks nice. Same goes for all collectables. A symptom of accummulation of wealth...and its fun. We have been hoarding "wealth" forever, like a bunch of magpies.

    When it comes to collecting its whatever floats your boat. How big a collection then its what funds are there to put to it. Lots to love about air rifles. One FWB Sport MKII isn't enough

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskett View Post
    Is there a room in your own house that you don't use?

    Gold? Can't eat it so whats the point? It holds value and looks nice. Same goes for all collectables. A symptom of accummulation of wealth...and its fun. We have been hoarding "wealth" forever, like a bunch of magpies.

    When it comes to collecting its whatever floats your boat. How big a collection then its what funds are there to put to it. Lots to love about air rifles. One FWB Sport MKII isn't enough


    Hmm - "Hoarding wealth" eh? Not sure that is necessarily true in many cases. Hoarding a deprecating asset may often be more the case? The collectors that have sought out and cherished pre and post war collectables are now old and dying, or frankly dead, and are not being replaced by a younger generation of collector in any quantity. Further those younger collectors want 'stuff' they remember from their youth, and not an old Airsporter from the 1950's, lovely as they are?

    So many old toys for example of one popular collecting area, are now worth less than they were 20+ years ago. I think we may see similar with the more common or garden airguns in the future?

  15. #15
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    I have asked a similar question here:

    http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....-last-gun-made

    Most people that commented have stated that it makes no difference to them, but if I was to put a number on it, I'd agree with Geezer:

    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    About 25%+ on very early or late serial numbers.[...]

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