Crosman Town & Country 107

[45flint]

Thank you very much for your offer ped. I'll let you know, cheers.

@45flint, I mean that with the Blue Streak, I have found that 3 pumps give enough "umpf" to do some tin can plinking. I've tested up to 30 meters, and it's accurate.
With the T&C, I need to pump at least 6 times to get enough power to do any shooting.

I think your T&C is just not giving full power? Here are my numbers this morning with Crosman Premiers 14.3 22 cal.

Pumps. FPS
3. 433
6. 580
8. 626

At 8 pumps the average Streak is just about the same, maybe a little higher. I asked that question of Streak owners this year on another forum, low to mid 600s

That’s why it will be fascinating to see what your new one will do with a reseal. I’m betting your surprised, it looks to be pretty much untouched? I don’t think I’ve ever seen Chrony numbers for a .177.

[jirushi]

I think your T&C is just not giving full power? Here are my numbers this morning with Crosman Premiers 14.3 22 cal.

Pumps. FPS
3. 433
6. 580
8. 626

At 8 the average Streak is just about the same, maybe a little higher. I asked that question of Streak owners this year on another forum, low to mid 600s

That’s why it will be fascinating to see what your new one will do with a reseal. I’m betting your surprised, it looks to be pretty much untouched? I don’t think I’ve ever seen Chrony numbers for a .177.

Hi 45flint, that's very interesting thank you. I just had some time to test both my T&C 108 and Blue Streak.
Per number of pumps I took the average velocity of 3 shots.
Here are the results (I can't get the layout right, excuse me):

T&C 108. .22 JSB Exact Diabolo Jumbo Express 14.35 gr
Pumps. FPS ft/lbs
3. 305 3
6. 460 6.7
8. 525 8.8

Blue Streak. .20 JSB Exact Diabolo 13,75 gr
Pumps. FPS ft/lbs
3. 427 5.6
6. 512 8
8. 551 9.3

Both airguns have been professionally resealed within the last 4 months.
Perhaps the T&C prefers the Crosman Premiers that you are using? They might fit better in the barrel?
I'll have to do some testing with different pellets.

The Crosman is a lot quieter at 8 pumps compared with the Sheridan at 8 pumps. Yes, the Sheridan produces more power, but it is way louder. And way harder to pump.
I like them both though!
Can't wait to see what the 107 does.

[jirushi]

I think your T&C is just not giving full power? Here are my numbers this morning with Crosman Premiers 14.3 22 cal.

Pumps. FPS
3. 433
6. 580
8. 626

At 8 pumps the average Streak is just about the same, maybe a little higher. I asked that question of Streak owners this year on another forum, low to mid 600s

That’s why it will be fascinating to see what your new one will do with a reseal. I’m betting your surprised, it looks to be pretty much untouched? I don’t think I’ve ever seen Chrony numbers for a .177.

Early this morning I did a few test shots with RWS Hobby's 11.9 gr in the T&C 108. As expected they give higher velocities, but lower energy output.
Wearing a t-shirt instead of a the thick fleece vest of yesterday evening, I noticed exactly what BB Pelletier describes in his article on the T&C:

I noticed a puff of air around my right hand every time the rifle fired, which I initially blamed on the recent resealing job my test rifle had gotten before the test. Then, I examined the bolt lockup more closely and discovered that the real problem was a loose bolt seal. No matter how hard I closed the bolt, that steep cam slot invited it to spring back just enough to exhaust some air. The problem was solved by manually holding the bolt closed with the thumb of my shooting hand as I pulled the trigger. There was still a small puff of air, but it was greatly diminished from what it had been. A real fanatic might have used some automotive valve-grinding compound to hand-lap the front of the bolt into the rear of the barrel; but this wasn’t my rifle, so I left it at that.

DTFletcher has written some advice regarding this problem on the American Vintage Airguns forum.
But this air escaping from the wrong side of the pellet might explain why my 108 is relatively low on power compared to 45's.
Have you noticed this puff of air, 45flint?

[45flint]

Early this morning I did a few test shots with RWS Hobby's 11.9 gr in the T&C 108. As expected they give higher velocities, but lower energy output.
Wearing a t-shirt instead of a the thick fleece vest of yesterday evening, I noticed exactly what BB Pelletier describes in his article on the T&C:

I noticed a puff of air around my right hand every time the rifle fired, which I initially blamed on the recent resealing job my test rifle had gotten before the test. Then, I examined the bolt lockup more closely and discovered that the real problem was a loose bolt seal. No matter how hard I closed the bolt, that steep cam slot invited it to spring back just enough to exhaust some air. The problem was solved by manually holding the bolt closed with the thumb of my shooting hand as I pulled the trigger. There was still a small puff of air, but it was greatly diminished from what it had been. A real fanatic might have used some automotive valve-grinding compound to hand-lap the front of the bolt into the rear of the barrel; but this wasn’t my rifle, so I left it at that.

DTFletcher has written some advice regarding this problem on the American Vintage Airguns forum.
But this air escaping from the wrong side of the pellet might explain why my 108 is relatively low on power compared to 45's.
Have you noticed this puff of air, 45flint?

I do think you are probably onto the issue. I know I read BB Pelletier review many times and if you look at his rifle it is really well used and not in great shape, even missing the barrel spacer. I have never felt any air puff out on firing and my lockup is pretty secure. My rifle though used is in very good original shape. But since you asked the question I thought I would further test it by laying a tissue over the top of the breech and yes it hopped a small bit (1/4 inch) with some oil on the tissue when I fired with 6 pumps. So my breech is not totally locked up either. I suspect that it just locks up better than yours and Pelletier’s? I could put some of my newly acquired damping grease around the probe and see if I get a total seal? I will try that this afternoon. This could explain why a professional reseal only went so far to give you your performance. I doubt any pro on a reseal would rework a breach seal that is metal to metal. Crosman like Sheridan would soon add a O ring to the probe to fix this potential issue.

By the way I tested Hobbys in my rifle the other day as well and like you I saw a very modest increase in speed. I think common wisdom is heavier pellets are better in pneumatics: seemed to hold true. In my spring powered gun they can really make a difference.

[jirushi]

I do think you are probably onto the issue. I know I read BB Pelletier review many times and if you look at his rifle it is really well used and not in great shape, even missing the barrel spacer. I have never felt any air puff out on firing and my lockup is pretty secure. My rifle though used is in very good original shape. But since you asked the question I thought I would further test it by laying a tissue over the top of the breech and yes it hopped a small bit (1/4 inch) with some oil on the tissue when I fired with 6 pumps. So my breech is not totally locked up either. I suspect that it just locks up better than yours and Pelletier’s? I could put some of my newly acquired damping grease around the probe and see if I get a total seal? I will try that this afternoon. This could explain why a professional reseal only went so far to give you your performance. I doubt any pro on a reseal would rework a breach seal that is metal to metal. Crosman like Sheridan would soon add a O ring to the probe to fix this potential issue.

By the way I tested Hobbys in my rifle the other day as well and like you I saw a very modest increase in speed. I think common wisdom is heavier pellets are better in pneumatics: seemed to hold true. In my spring powered gun they can really make a difference.

Very interesting. As my 108 is not 100% original anymore, it might (might...) be interesting to machine the bolt to use an o-ring.
Ped springs to mind immediately for an interesting job like this haha.

[45flint]

Very interesting. As my 108 is not 100% original anymore, it might (might...) be interesting to machine the bolt to use an o-ring.
Ped springs to mind immediately for an interesting job like this haha.

Please hurry up and reseal your 107, that should prove fasinating really on all these issues!

[45flint]

Interesting I applied my new Damping grease “Kilopoise“ that sealed my taps to the probe of my 108. It did eliminate any movement of a tissue put on the breech fired with 6 pumps. Did not seem to change my FPS output, but I assume my leakage was slight? “Kilopoise” is interesting stuff, not sure it’s appreciated in it Country of origin? Lol

Also not sure that this will be a lasting effect as more and more pellets are fired. But Kilopoise is the stickiest most bizarre compound I have ever encountered.

[--ped--]

try lapping the probe to the barrel leade Louis

[jirushi]

Please hurry up and reseal your 107, that should prove fasinating really on all these issues!

Yes I am itching to reseal it. I need the T1/T5 tool though. Unfortunately it is not available from Baker Airguns, JG airguns or Rick Willnecker of Precision Pellet.
Luckily Ped is a fantastically friendly and very knowledgeable/skilled man who has offered to make one for me. That is really nice.
I'll keep you updated.
Cheers, Louis

[--ped--]

no probs Louis