Crosman Town & Country 107

[45flint]

Awesome! Interesting that they must have just changed to that type when they made yours? Or possibly the 1949 dating of the Kringle paint T&C sighted 101 is earlier than we thought? I know mine was brass on both parts and screwed in. Glad you got it apart.

Looks like DT Fletcher on another forum says that this was not original, but a replacement? Would make sense given my 1949 101? He says it’s not rebuildable but can’t see why not now that you have it apart?

[jirushi]

Awesome! Interesting that they must have just changed to that type when they made yours? Or possibly the 1949 dating of the Kringle paint T&C sighted 101 is earlier than we thought? I know mine was brass on both parts and screwed in. Glad you got it apart.

Looks like DT Fletcher on another forum says that this was not original, but a replacement? Would make sense given my 1949 101? He says it’s not rebuildable but can’t see why not now that you have it apart?

Yes, DT Fletcher is right! The pump head is a newer type. Someone did some repairs here... But not to worry, it works fine now!
More re assembling later today hopefully, or tomorrow.





Resealed check valve / exhaust valve assy:

[jirushi]

I woke up early before work and re-assembled the 107.
That was a satisfying thing to do. Everything is gently cleaned and re-lubed.

There's one last problem to solve: the pump cup does not clear the "breathing hole".
As can be seen on the photos: the first one is of the 107, the second one is the 108.
On the 108 photo, you can see the gold colour of the cylinder, so the pump cup is just above it. This is the way it should be.

I hope it's an easy fix: adjusting the screw at the front of the pump rod (3rd photo). Hopefully there's enough space in the steel part that holds the lever, for the screw to be turned inwards. Otherwise I might ask Ped if he has a spare old-style pump rod/head assy for sale

We'll see. Right now the 107 holds air, and feels great, but it doesn't make the "air sucking" noise when pumping and only produces 3 ft/lbs with 8 pumps.
I'll get there!

[--ped--]

all the piston heads I have are the same as yours Louis and as you've seen this type are rebuildable but usually they were rebuilt by the service centres(you can get them from JG on an exchange basis still)
is the rod adjusted correctly and these seals are designed to squeeze a bit on opening and expand when pumped so they sealed to the tube
how much more clearance do you need can you shave a bit off the piston pivot block so the lever opens a touch more
on one of my 140's and a Sheridan I found I had to slot the breeth hole a fraction when fitting upgraded pistons

[jirushi]

all the piston heads I have are the same as yours Louis and as you've seen this type are rebuildable but usually they were rebuilt by the service centres(you can get them from JG on an exchange basis still)
is the rod adjusted correctly and these seals are designed to squeeze a bit on opening and expand when pumped so they sealed to the tube
how much more clearance do you need can you shave a bit off the piston pivot block so the lever opens a touch more
on one of my 140's and a Sheridan I found I had to slot the breeth hole a fraction when fitting upgraded pistons

Good ideas. I will check later re the clearance.
Do you know if the rod can be turned into the piston pivot block?
This would be the logical way to adjust the length of the rod?
Well, the answer lies at home hehe.

[45flint]

I’m mixing threads from the other forum but you said your pump arm was welded to probably put on the new pump cup? If you are now finding that it was not adjusted correctly he may have given up? It may be why your rifle is in such good shape, it wasn’t used after that? I’ve seen that with other vintage rifles, sometimes the ones in excellent shape broke and they were never fixed? Good thing is this is a easy fix, I bought one from Rick for a Crosman 101 that had a leather pump seal. Worked great and was not much money. I like you wanted to keep the original but in the end I used the new one cause I would be the only one that would know anyway.

[jirushi]

I’m mixing threads from the other forum but you said your pump arm was welded to probably put on the new pump cup? If you are now finding that it was not adjusted correctly he may have given up? It may be why your rifle is in such good shape, it wasn’t used after that? I’ve seen that with other vintage rifles, sometimes the ones in excellent shape broke and they were never fixed? Good thing is this is a easy fix, I bought one from Rick for a Crosman 101 that had a leather pump seal. Worked great and was not much money. I like you wanted to keep the original but in the end I used the new one cause I would be the only one that would know anyway.

Yes I asked for Rick Willnecker's advice and he says part of my pump rod comes off a 1400.
I don't really mind tbh, as long as it works (as you point out).
Luckily, this rod is easy to adjust in length. Pfew.
It took a few attempts to get the length just right.
Now the cup clears the "breathing hole".
However, I'm not there yet...
The gun is very low on power (about 3.5 ft/lbs with 8 pumps. I've tried 15 pumps, the pumping is way too easy - 4 ft/lbs).
Hmmm.
It doesn't seem to be leaking. But I can't be sure. I am sure that the new seals are fitted correctly in the compression chamber. I've lubed them with a bit of silicon grease.
I didn't bang the brass nut all the way down onto the pump cup base; I left a bit of space to make it easier to replace the cup next time. I can't see how this would cause low power though.
One thing that struck me, is that the check valve spring in Rick's seal kit is about 1 cm longer than the one that was in the gun.
The gun now contains Rick's spring.
Perhaps the check valve cannot open properly with this stronger spring?
My 108 is perfect though, and Rick resealed that for me a few months ago; I'm sure he used this same spring.
And I don't think that the 108's internals are any different from the 107?
Hmmmmmmm

Any ideas?

[DT Fletcher]

Awesome! Interesting that they must have just changed to that type when they made yours? Or possibly the 1949 dating of the Kringle paint T&C sighted 101 is earlier than we thought? I know mine was brass on both parts and screwed in. Glad you got it apart.

Looks like DT Fletcher on another forum says that this was not original, but a replacement? Would make sense given my 1949 101? He says it’s not rebuildable but can’t see why not now that you have it apart?

Most anything is rebuildable, given enough time, effort, and the right parts. Back in the day, these pump assemblies were never rebuilt for the simple reason that Crosman didn't sell the individual pump cups. That was the basis of my statement. Today, with replacement pump cups, they can. Which, clearly, is (good) news to me. Same with the old 150/160/180 etc model exhaust valves, until Rick started sourcing the proper seals, these valves were considered non-rebuildable, but, today they are. Fortunately, I tended to keep these valves and had a coffee can of 'em which I proceeded to rebuild with parts from Rick.

Like I said on the other forum, I would never rebuild one of these guns with that small check valve seat: it's unreliable and was replaced in production by Crosman with the large version.

Pump adjustment: Per Crosman factory engineering, the pump is properly adjusted when the pump head presses firm against the air chamber and then just enough more so that the pump rod "over-toggles" which forces the pump head against the air chamber and hold the pump arm firmly in place. No other adjustment is (factory) acceptable.

I never worried too much about the air hole. The pump head is not very effective when run in reverse and unless the pump arm is hard to open up, you probably don't have a air supply problem. In other words, don't use the air hole to determine pump arm adjustment.

Didn't see what oil you're using. Most oils and all oils intended for spring guns, are not acceptable. I presume you're using Crosman oil, or MAC-1 Secret Sauce (I know the secret, if you're looking for a local source) or .....?

[--ped--]

the last one of those type valves and inlets I resealed was a 105 which had rock hard seals -not having a replacement set I milled the hard seal out to take a poly 2240 co2 seal on both stem and inlet(I use the same poly seal on the older dan inlets)
instead of the flat exhaust body seal I use an o ring ,did you correctly align the exhaust body with the port
lapping the probe is just like doing a cylinder head valve -bit of paste and twiddle till you see an un broken line of contact on both parts
I have a 140 oring piston head conversion in stock but I only do them on an exchange basis

[jirushi]

Most anything is rebuildable, given enough time, effort, and the right parts. Back in the day, these pump assemblies were never rebuilt for the simple reason that Crosman didn't sell the individual pump cups. That was the basis of my statement. Today, with replacement pump cups, they can. Which, clearly, is (good) news to me. Same with the old 150/160/180 etc model exhaust valves, until Rick started sourcing the proper seals, these valves were considered non-rebuildable, but, today they are. Fortunately, I tended to keep these valves and had a coffee can of 'em which I proceeded to rebuild with parts from Rick.

Like I said on the other forum, I would never rebuild one of these guns with that small check valve seat: it's unreliable and was replaced in production by Crosman with the large version.

Pump adjustment: Per Crosman factory engineering, the pump is properly adjusted when the pump head presses firm against the air chamber and then just enough more so that the pump rod "over-toggles" which forces the pump head against the air chamber and hold the pump arm firmly in place. No other adjustment is (factory) acceptable.

I never worried too much about the air hole. The pump head is not very effective when run in reverse and unless the pump arm is hard to open up, you probably don't have a air supply problem. In other words, don't use the air hole to determine pump arm adjustment.

Didn't see what oil you're using. Most oils and all oils intended for spring guns, are not acceptable. I presume you're using Crosman oil, or MAC-1 Secret Sauce (I know the secret, if you're looking for a local source) or .....?

Hi DT, thank you kindly for all the interesting info and thoughts.
Especially the pump adjustment info is very interesting - I bet the power issue of my 107 is partly due to wrong adjustment. I think I've over adjusted, meaning that the rod is screwed into the piston pivot block too much. This explains why the forearm drops down easily now.

Then the small check valve base. Will have a look on the JG airguns website if they sell the larger version.

The gun has held air overnight.

I used silicone grease on the seals. And a tiny bit of moly grease on the metal parts of the pump rod that make contact with the tube wall.
Do you think that this would cause issues? I have Pellgun oil, no "secret sauce".

@ Ped, I think the exhaust body is aligned properly; the blind hole on the exhaust body (see drawing) is aligned with the hole in the tube.
Good idea to use an o-ring in lieu of the flat exhaust valve body seal.
The seal seems to be working now though.
What kind of paste do you use for lapping?

[--ped--]

valve grinding compound Louis ,use the fine one not the coarse

[DT Fletcher]

"I used silicone grease on the seals. And a tiny bit of moly grease on the metal parts of the pump rod that make contact with the tube wall. Do you think that this would cause issues? I have Pellgun oil, no "secret sauce". "

Silicone grease is going to attract dirt and grit, I'm assuming. Moly grease? No idea. The question is: is it compatible with hydraulic systems?

The problem is that the lubes used will invariably end up on the seals, so, that lube needs to be fully compatible. MAC-1 did their work in finding a better lube than Crosman (which tends to gum up) and they came up with Secret Sauce. I've let out the "secret" a number of times so no big deal; it's heavy weight motorcycle fork oil. 50 wt, if memory serves. Can't recall the brand they used but might have been Bel-Ray. It's pretty certain that any high quality fork oil is going to be okay.

I made the effort to use the flat washer for the exhaust valve, instead of an O-ring. As I recall, the flat washer made it easier to get the exhaust port properly aligned with the barrel inlet.

If you go for a replacement pump rod, again as best as I can recall, the 101 pump rod is the same thing. Pretty wild how the previous repair actually welded the new pump head on the old one. Pretty sure it's a first for me. Your rebuilding the previously unrebuildable pump head being another first.... for me anyways.

These guns are great fun to work on and even more fun to shoot.

[DT Fletcher]

Had to think a bit about precisely why o-rings aren't the best choice to replace the stock square-section seal. Note the positioning indent on the exhaust valve body; this is the shallow hole in the body that can be seen through the hole in the compression tube. These holes when perfectly aligned mean that the exhaust port is perfectly aligned at the same time. So, when installing the exhaust body, you want to place a rod of the precise diameter that fits these holes, then, with that positioning rod in place, fully tighten the exhaust nut, without the exhaust body moving at all. This usually doesn't work with an o-ring... as I recall.

[jirushi]

Had to think a bit about precisely why o-rings aren't the best choice to replace the stock square-section seal. Note the positioning indent on the exhaust valve body; this is the shallow hole in the body that can be seen through the hole in the compression tube. These holes when perfectly aligned mean that the exhaust port is perfectly aligned at the same time. So, when installing the exhaust body, you want to place a rod of the precise diameter that fits these holes, then, with that positioning rod in place, fully tighten the exhaust nut, without the exhaust body moving at all. This usually doesn't work with an o-ring... as I recall.

Good tips, thank you. I might have some time to do some further testing later today, and then I'll report later.
I'm confident I'll get this 107 to work better.
The extactly-fitting-rod-in-the-indent technique is a good one. Until now I've lined the hole up, and then tightened the exhaust nut, which does make the exhaust body move slightly. And could cause the transfer port to work less efficiently.
@ Ped, valve grinding paste it is.
I will also order some parts from JG Airguns. My sister is in Santa Barbara, so she can take some parts back with her