1856 Tower Musket proof marks

[Huttles94]

The 21 is not the bore, it is number of lead balls of the same diameter as the bore that weigh one pound. Your 21 bore musket works out at .60cal. It is therefore not a converted Brown Bess - that's .69cal.

Can you post images of the lock, please?

ahhh ok I get it now. I do have images of the lock but it was way back and they are not good quality, ill send a link anyway but I am there again on Wednesday so ill get some better pictures then.

Also what nipple thread are these? or does it vary between guns?

Here are the images of the lock, like I said, it is pretty dark and not the best images but i will get more:

https://i.imgur.com/gSBYxZo.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vvfUcoA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DICYGOR.jpg

Also as a bonus, here it is on my grandfather wall along with two shotguns:

https://i.imgur.com/Prl4mrs.jpg

[tacfoley]

ahhh ok I get it now. I do have images of the lock but it was way back and they are not good quality, ill send a link anyway but I am there again on Wednesday so ill get some better pictures then.

Also what nipple thread are these? or does it vary between guns?

Here are the images of the lock, like I said, it is pretty dark and not the best images but i will get more:

https://i.imgur.com/gSBYxZo.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vvfUcoA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DICYGOR.jpg

Also as a bonus, here it is on my grandfather wall along with two shotguns:

https://i.imgur.com/Prl4mrs.jpg

Many thanks for the images, and yes, they ARE pretty awful. The piece is a Pattern 53 musket or rifled musket, with a 1856-dated lock. For some reason it was sold out of service, and reproofed after boring out to a smoothbore shotgun. The lack of backsight is because shotguns do not need a backsight. Enfield-style nipples can be bought from Peter Dyson, as noted before, but you can only get the Musket or Top Hat caps as they are called, by showing your SGC to the dealer. I'm not familiar with shotguns, and I'm not sure if you have to note it on the SGC - more experienced advice is on the way, I'm sure.

A word of caution - do NOT try and shoot it without getting it looked at first by a competent gunsmith, and gentle loads of BLACK POWDER only are needed.

[Huttles94]

Many thanks for the images, and yes, they ARE pretty awful. The piece is a Pattern 53 musket or rifled musket, with a 1856-dated lock. For some reason it was sold out of service, and reproofed after boring out to a smoothbore shotgun. The lack of backsight is because shotguns do not need a backsight. Enfield-style nipples can be bought from Peter Dyson, as noted before, but you can only get the Musket or Top Hat caps as they are called, by showing your SGC to the dealer. I'm not familiar with shotguns, and I'm not sure if you have to note it on the SGC - more experienced advice is on the way, I'm sure.

A word of caution - do NOT try and shoot it without getting it looked at first by a competent gunsmith, and gentle loads of BLACK POWDER only are needed.

Just found a similar one on gunstar, that one is a 1857 Tower so only a year difference. That too is a 0.60 caliber.

I know you said you think it was re bored but I would of thought there would be traces of the old inspection mark for the gauge if it was re proofed. So could it be that some were indeed made to 0.60 caliber from the factory? Maybe a certain unit requested this specific caliber? Either way I dont plan on shooting it anytime soon and it very much a S58 wall piece. Might be different in the future but yes, I rather like not being blown up so i would get it checked out before hand

[tacfoley]

Just found a similar one on gunstar, that one is a 1857 Tower so only a year difference. That too is a 0.60 caliber.

I know you said you think it was re bored but I would of thought there would be traces of the old inspection mark for the gauge if it was re proofed. So could it be that some were indeed made to 0.60 caliber from the factory? Maybe a certain unit requested this specific caliber? Either way I dont plan on shooting it anytime soon and it very much a S58 wall piece. Might be different in the future but yes, I rather like not being blown up so i would get it checked out before hand

There has never been a .60 smoothbore gun in British service. No unit would have requested a different bore or calibre arm than the rest, except the Light Division who were equipped with the Baker rifle in the late 1790's and early 1800s - and they were flintlocks.

David Minshall notes -

A government rifle will NOT carry the commercial marks of the London or Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof Houses with their usual marks and double 25 bore size marks. However these can sometimes be found IN ADDITION to the defaced original government proofs showing that the rifle has been correctly (and as required by law) submitted for proof prior to civilian sale.

[Huttles94]

There has never been a .60 smoothbore gun in British service. No unit would have requested a different bore or calibre arm than the rest, except the Light Division who were equipped with the Baker rifle in the late 1790's and early 1800s - and they were flintlocks.

David Minshall notes -

A government rifle will NOT carry the commercial marks of the London or Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof Houses with their usual marks and double 25 bore size marks. However these can sometimes be found IN ADDITION to the defaced original government proofs showing that the rifle has been correctly (and as required by law) submitted for proof prior to civilian sale.

This piece is a muzzle-loading antique - not a Section 58 which refers only to obsolete calibre cartridge-firing small arms.

That is odd since I have seen many guns sell as Section 58 that were muzzle loaders and did not fire cartridges.

[tacfoley]

That is odd since I have seen many guns sell as Section 58 that were muzzle loaders and did not fire cartridges.

I've just checked. You are correct. Since you already seem to know the answers to your questions, so why are you asking them here?

[Huttles94]

I've just checked. You are correct. Since you already seem to know the answers to your questions, so why are you asking them here?

I was not asking whether the gun is S58 or not since as you pointed out I already know.

I was simply asking about the proof/makers marks, Thank you for telling me what the 21 mark is, I was just wondering if some were made to that caliber from new since I have seen a few on the internet (ones saying that they are .600 caliber ect even some being 0.650). And the fact that I cant see any remains of another gauge mark just made me think that maybe there were a very small number made to that specification, either for the British army or the US (Both the Union and Confederates used the 1853 enfield musket/rifles but mainly the Confederates since they did not have steady access to the springfield rifles used by the north). I would of thought there would be some remains of an older mark if it was re bored. But again I am no expert.

As far as I can also tell, it is a smooth bore but I know that when these were rifled later on, sometimes the rifling would be very thin and might have been worn away due to heavy usage (not checked too far down the barrel, only near the muzzle)