Is there a mechanically perfect springer?

[Phil Russell]

This really follows on from my recent 'Top End Springer' thread but I thought it should be separate.
Having looked / stripped / shot many rifles over the years I feel that while they are all generally very good, a niggly fault can be found that with some thought at the design stage could have been engineered out, making a good rifle even better. Now I am not really concerned with things like inadequate lubrication or over lubrication or maybe even sloppy spring guide fit and a need for a generall 'smoothing out' or deburring. I am on about design faults.
I will list two:
1. The TX safety catch issue; having to yank on the u/l to set it. I have seen several rifles where you need to give a good yank to set the catch, others where you don't and the complete cocking action is very sweet and smooth. This can happen to new and old rifles alike. Surely the fault, and I believe it is a fault, could be / should be engineered out at the production stage.
2. The old model FWB 124/127 awful safety catch. I have seen rifles where the catch sets but where even moderate trigger pressure overcomes it. Not good enough I am afraid. Clearly a redesign was needed.

I am sure there are other examples. While thinking about this I was going to remark that it is very pleasing that modern rifles e.g. HW77/97, TX, LGU, LGV are so very easy to strip, generally because of the trigger mechanism cassette and began to think this was progress compared with the older Webley triggers or the 3 ball Diana/Original. But of course the even older BSA and Heinel rifles had trigger units that made a strip so easy. So maybe there is no case to answer and modern rifles are indeed built for the diy market.

Just thoughts,
Cheers, Phil

[T 20]

1. The TX safety catch issue; having to yank on the u/l to set it. I have seen several rifles where you need to give a good yank to set the catch, others where you don't and the complete cocking action is very sweet and smooth. This can happen to new and old rifles alike. Surely the fault, and I believe it is a fault, could be / should be engineered out at the production stage.

Funny you should mention that, Phil.

I've recently been looking into this problem when I worked on my HW35 fitted with a TX latchrod and firmly believe it is a manufacturing fault --- there is also a very simple DIY cure using a Dremmel.

I'll try to get some pictures taken of how to cure the problem and post them later.





All the best Mick

[Phil Russell]

Funny you should mention that, Phil.

I've recently been looking into this problem when I worked on my HW35 fitted with a TX latchrod and firmly believe it is a manufacturing fault --- there is also a very simple DIY cure using a Dremmel.

I'll try to get some pictures taken of how to cure the problem and post them later.





All the best Mick

That would be excellent. There are 'cures' I came across that do not directly involve the latch rod. I attach a copy:

From BBS:
had this problem with mine. found it was the piston and spring guide touching removed half a mill from top of guide and it cocks as easy as you like now
This is good information. I found that the piston guide flange for a Prosport had to be no more than 2.8mm thick or the rifle would not cock but the antibear mechanism did engage. Tricky ....


And from BBS again:
Also appear to have sorted the safety by adding a little extra trigger tension via the screw under the guard, only got 15 shots or so off but set every time with a positive stroke, but not yanking it.
Literally about a quarter turn

I have not tried the trigger tension fix. I guess the first fix involving piston could be down to a latch rod issue ...

Cheers, Phil

[oldcurmudgeon]

Webley tomahawk and longbow 😊

[zephyr]

“Glass half empty”... perfection has not been achieved, anywhere, ever.

[Mach 1.5]

Venom Mach 1. Mach 1.5

[cooper_dan]

For me the Diana 65/66 is the closest I've got to the mechanicallly perfect springer. Really shocks people when they try it for the first time

[TonyL]

Venom Mach 1. Mach 1.5

Got to agree.

Although I've never had the first hand pleasure, one can only think that it would be perfick.

Must admit, though, never had an issue with any HW. And my TX has been fine in the safety department, although I have tried others which were very fickle. I could only imagine that my 300S would be pretty good but would only ever consider stripping if needs be.

[dvd]

For me the Diana 65/66 is the closest I've got to the mechanicallly perfect springer. Really shocks people when they try it for the first time

+1 to that.
Got to love the Giss system!
The rear piston's momentum just about eliminates the front piston's bounce via the rack and pinion. It also delivers a perfectly timed rearward thump to the cylinder's end-cap to counter act the front piston's forward thump as it hits the bottom of the cylinder.
Brilliant!

A close second would be the Anschutz Mod 220.
Superb modular trigger, self adjusting spring guide, pneumatic recoil damper, two counter-wound springs, fixed barrel, pellet loading aid, can be dismantled using just a screw driver.

What is more impressive is that both were produced in the early 1960's.

[Geezer]

Long answer:

Match rifles: not a proper match shooter, but always loved the Giss system Dianas. On the other hand, FWB300S is great too, and won all the medals.

Sporters. The basic problem is that most U.K.-market guns since the 70s and 80s have been “de-tuned” to stay under 12 ft-lbs, while designed for a bit more.

Custom stuff, yes, Venom Mach1/2. And KT specials.

Factory:

- HW77 25mm internals. Probably a 14 ft-lbs gun, but still great at 12.
- TX200 Mk1, as above.
- Longbow. Just nice. Don’t over rate it. Fundamentally a Venom cross between a Vulcan and a Mach1, mass- produced and smaller. But nice.
- Tomahawk (see above, re Longbow) in either FAC (18-21 ft-kbs) or factory short-stroke 12 ft-lbs model.
- HW80. Best at 16-18? Can apparently be made very good at sub-12. But still a big old lumpy thing.
- HW85/95 (esp early), ditto, but lighter. Still a 14 ft-lbs gun, really.
- HW99S if issues fixed, annoyingly good at 12.
- FWB 124/127. Trigger, safety and breech lock up issues, but silly easy to cock and silly accurate. Proven in the field and early FT. Again, a fourteen foot-pounder still very good at sub-12.
- Diana 48/52. Not great at 11 ft-lbs. Apparently very very good at it’s designed 18-22 levels.

Short answer:

They are all compromises. With the possible exception of Venom, perfection has never been achieved. And probably cannot because of different laws and market preferences.

[Geezer]

For the avoidance of doubt, my ideal springer at 12 ft-lbs or so would be a 22mm cylinder long-stroke late-model (LW barrel) Webley Tomahawk with a Venom trigger and a resettable safety catch, preferably ambidextrous. In walnut.

Which is basically the mythical unicorn Air Arms break-barrel that at least 63 people on here have been lobbying for.

[Spray1Mark]

There is no such thing as a "good" springer, let alone a mechanically perfect one!

[Geezer]

There is no such thing as a "good" springer, let alone a mechanically perfect one!

Contact, front! Break contact!

[T 20]

I'll try to get some pictures taken of how to cure the problem and post them later.

This is what I've found after many hours of staring at a CD unit and latchrod and wondering why an LGV latchrod works better than a TX latchrod in the same unit.

The rear of the TX latchrod has a flat face on it whereas the LGV latchrod has a pip on it :-

image.jpeg


Now the cocking position for the CD latchrod and top sear looks like this :-

image.jpeg


Most of the way through setting the trigger Sears the latchrod is touching the top sear at point "A", when the top sear gets near to latching the latchrod switches to touching at point "B" so losing all mechanical advantage.
The LGV latchrod having a central pip on it switches from hitting at point "A" to hitting halfway between points "A" and "B" when nearing latching.

My simple fix is to dremmel out the back of the top sear from the midpoint between points "A" and "B" to the bottom of the hook so eliminating any contact at point "B" altogether.

I've tried to show the bit I remove with a dotted line :-

image.jpeg


All the best Mick

[FPoole]

Just the opposite problem with my LGU piston in my TX. The factory piston works perfect and the LGU needs a bit of a bump sometimes. Always felt a little extra meat was needed where the tip of the top sear presses on the top of the second sear. As it presses down on sear 2, it pulls sear 2 forward and allows the safety to pop free. Seems to me that it needs to touch the second sear a little sooner in the cocking stroke. In the end, I really don't care if the safety sets or not, but it would be better that it work perfectly.