Lightweight cylinder HW 100 carbine recommendation

[sandyman1963]

Well after reading this most informative thread I’ve come to the conclusion that I will not in any way shape or form buy an after market cylinder for my HW100KT. Here’s me almost ready to press buy on evil bay sod that for a laugh.

Thank you you may have saved some one from serious injury.

[Fenton Shooting]

Dear Air Gun Shooting community

As we supply this item we like to take part in this thread to answer any questions and myths that seem to be posted here.

The tube that failed may have been deformed,weakened due too either shipping, or the ends were fitted using a vice. Thus resulting in crushing of the cylinder when the tubes ends were fitted. The valve end should be fitted using a 8mm bar in the fill port, and a socket/spanner for the valve end. It should never be tightened in a vice. After this problem was brought to light we upgraded the fitting instructions, placing the fitting sheet around the tube, so this information could not be missed, instead of inside the packaging. Also the shipping has been upgraded to avoid any damage in transit.

We have a testing certificate from a certified testing facility of 650 bar, with rapid evacuation, and rapid refill in a 10 times cycle, with no deformation over a quantity of tubes. This is the most extreme testing you can have, as advised from the testing centre. As you are no doubt aware filling slowly,and exhausting slowly should be done in a controlled manner. The testing house inspect items on a daily basis (as you can well imagine). We have been in contact with them and the manufacturer.

In light of many potential factors of building up the unit, eg: having correct tools, fitting experience, and indeed testing capabilities once the unit has been built by the end user we are now not selling the "tube only option" to the general public. This option will only be available to accredited outlets that specialise in this field.
With over 100 tubes sold this is the only known failure. We have had a return with marks on the tube, that occurred in transit. We asked the buyer to not use the item, to return, and we replaced the tube. Upgraded packaging, and shipping has resolved this issue.

We fill every tube to 260 bar in house before shipping, and then step back to 100 bar over night too check for leaks.

We take the highest level of care, and caution from manufacture, testing, storage, packaging, and shipping to produce a safe, reliable Fenton product for the end user. We welcome any feedback from the shooting community to improve our product. Any feedback received we will certainly take it on board to help future shooters and current customers.


Best Regards
Fenton Shooting Supplies

[Goatofmendez]

Dear Air Gun Shooting community

As we supply this item we like to take part in this thread to answer any questions and myths that seem to be posted here.

The tube that failed may have been deformed,weakened due too either shipping, or the ends were fitted using a vice. Thus resulting in crushing of the cylinder when the tubes ends were fitted. The valve end should be fitted using a 8mm bar in the fill port, and a socket/spanner for the valve end. It should never be tightened in a vice. After this problem was brought to light we upgraded the fitting instructions, placing the fitting sheet around the tube, so this information could not be missed, instead of inside the packaging. Also the shipping has been upgraded to avoid any damage in transit.

We have a testing certificate from a certified testing facility of 650 bar, with rapid evacuation, and rapid refill in a 10 times cycle, with no deformation over a quantity of tubes. This is the most extreme testing you can have, as advised from the testing centre. As you are no doubt aware filling slowly,and exhausting slowly should be done in a controlled manner. The testing house inspect items on a daily basis (as you can well imagine). We have been in contact with them and the manufacturer.

In light of many potential factors of building up the unit, eg: having correct tools, fitting experience, and indeed testing capabilities once the unit has been built by the end user we are now not selling the "tube only option" to the general public. This option will only be available to accredited outlets that specialise in this field.
With over 100 tubes sold this is the only known failure. We have had a return with marks on the tube, that occurred in transit. We asked the buyer to not use the item, to return, and we replaced the tube. Upgraded packaging, and shipping has resolved this issue.

We fill every tube to 260 bar in house before shipping, and then step back to 100 bar over night too check for leaks.

We take the highest level of care, and caution from manufacture, testing, storage, packaging, and shipping to produce a safe, reliable Fenton product for the end user. We welcome any feedback from the shooting community to improve our product. Any feedback received we will certainly take it on board to help future shooters and current customers.


Best Regards
Fenton Shooting Supplies

Are you confirming the split tube is yours then? If you are then your certificate does not seem to be worth the paper it is printed on. Again IF the tube is yours I would be considering contacting your certicate house for comment.

Also could you confirm Grade of Aluminium you use and wall thickness.

thanks
Goat

[Fenton Shooting]

Are you confirming the split tube is yours then? If you are then your certificate does not seem to be worth the paper it is printed on. Again IF the tube is yours I would be considering contacting your certicate house for comment.

Also could you confirm Grade of Aluminium you use and wall thickness.

thanks
Goat

Dear Goat

I have contacted the manufacturer for specification clarity.

Your figures state a wall thickness of 3.5mm in fact it is 4.3mm wall
Material tensile strength is 245 Minimum MPa
Using Barlow Formula you can see a 650 bar without deformation is easily achieved. We did not test to destruction as 650 bar is over double that the tube is rated at. Hope this helps allay any concerns . Any questions get back to me and i can contact the manufacturer further for you.

If the tube that we are talking about is indeed one of ours as this is all hear say though general conciseness and feel from this thread is that it is. How the tube split? is a good question!

Regarding your comment on the test house results.Why would we question a expert in there field in their test results? Who provided full certification? We are not experts in this field are you?

[Goatofmendez]

Dear Goat

I have contacted the manufacturer for specification clarity.

Your figures state a wall thickness of 3.5mm in fact it is 4.3mm wall
Material tensile strength is 245 Minimum MPa
Using Barlow Formula you can see a 650 bar without deformation is easily achieved. We did not test to destruction as 650 bar is over double that the tube is rated at. Hope this helps allay any concerns . Any questions get back to me and i can contact the manufacturer further for you.

If the tube that we are talking about is indeed one of ours as this is all hear say though general conciseness and feel from this thread is that it is. How the tube split? is a good question!

Regarding your comment on the test house results.Why would we question a expert in there field in their test results? Who provided full certification? We are not experts in this field are you?

Hi thanks for the reply.

You quote a wall thickness of 4.3mm @ a tensile strength of 245MPa. With these figures I get the deformation pressure as 569.5bar. While I completely concede that this is more than double the working pressure for normal operation, my problem is that on your listings you mention "Rigorously tested & certified to 650 bar with Rapid evacuation and rapid refill in a 10 times cycle, with no deformation or loss of structural strength recorded." This statement flies directly in the face of the 569.5bar deformation pressure calculation using Barlows formula. As scientifically it will deform at 569.5bar.

The answer your question "Why would we question a expert in there field in their test results?" Well, perhaps the fact that one of the cylinders split from end to end at 150bar? I would certainly be questioning them on both counts. You don't need to be an expert to reaslise that there is something wrong when tubes tested to 650bar are splitting at 150bar, do you?

regards
Goat

[sandyman1963]

It makes you think twice about buying after market parts. How many cheap and cheerful things have we all I’m sure bought and found them totally useless and or dangerous.

You do not often hear about bottles and or cylinders going tits up which is reassuring but and it is a big but these thing going wrong can quite literally kill some one.

Nothing is perfect and things do go wrong. It’s good to see that these cylinders are tested it ticks a box.

[Fenton Shooting]

you mention "Rigorously tested & certified to 650 bar with Rapid evacuation and rapid refill in a 10 times cycle, with no deformation or loss of structural strength recorded." This statement flies directly in the face of the 569.5bar deformation pressure calculation using Barlows formula. As scientifically it will deform at 569.5bar.

regards
Goat[/QUOTE]

Hi Goat

Good the hear from you, hope you are enjoying the Christmas festivities.

To clarify and add to your workings out, Posted previously is "Material tensile strength is 245 Minimum MPa"
Minimum being the key word, You're quite right you should work of the Min fraction amount unless proven otherwise. The MPa is achieved when the chemical composition is formed (the makeup of the material is smelted/ cast) to be at a minimum of 245 Mpa upwards from 245MPa is guaranteed.

How to: Proving the material to be certified at a higher MPa
1.Raw material with the same chemical composition batch is acquired from a certified quality assured stock holder with full traceability provided. ISO
2. Machining takes place to a ISO standard
3. Visual inspection takes place for any defects in the machining process.
4. Finishing applied this is when the product is complete.
5. A random % of the products from the batch are sent for testing at a certified test house, this is where the true MPa is found.
If the item would burst at 569.5bar it would be at the minimum of the scale for that cast (batch) when smelted chemical composition when formed. However. If the testing houses findings are of that the 650 bar with Rapid evacuation and rapid refill in a 10 times cycle, with no deformation or loss of structural strength is recorded. This then is the certified MPa / upwards of 245MPa range. As stated the 245MPa is the starting point minimum of the Mpa range from the chemical composition that it was smelted too you can expect from the material. To get the True MPa as i know you are someone that would surely be interested in would be to test until destruction. The figure is then achieved. As 650MPa is over 2 x for Tench 3 x for HW100 Maximum that should be filled too.

6. Upon certification on the batch the tube is then constructed and tested in house to 260 bar (over stressing the tube can create a weakness)

Hope this clarifies the process

Worth covering our position again
This is one the main reasons we have stopped selling the tube only option there is too many factors to go wrong, having the right tools / experience / and safe way to test the cylinder after being built is a risk we are not willing to take. We sell them to Gun shops that are qualified to take the task on. However we feel it is too dangerous. We would like to see other suppliers follow suit or offer a service where they can send the tube to be changed at there facility so it is correctly done and checked safely.

As you grasp the dangers / pressures involved i am sure you will agree filling any tube in your hand is always dangerous and a risk that should not be taken, certainly after never being tested being built by a end user.

Less inexperienced users should be aware of the dangers of alterations modifications to all guns,with help & advice from the shooting community to protect our community from legislation / laws / licensees / annual test certificates from the Ban Everything lobbyists, Everyone's advice can help the whole shooting community.

Merry Christmas

Best Regards
Fenton

[Goatofmendez]

So what is the maximum MPa for 6082T6 Aluminium?

Still can't understand why the tube went pop at 150bar though. Also is it legal to send compressed air cylinders in the post? What postal method do you use?

thanks

[krisko]

Look down inside the tube against some light with ends off for us to see if it separated along the inner seam/weld.


Weihrauch used to tighten up the ends like stupid tight in the factory.Probably that’s why people think it must to be done tight like crazy... but o rings do not deal/work that way.

The truth is the ends can be left quite loose, once pressurised you can’t undo the ends anyway. It’s fine to have it hand tight definitely easer to go in again later if need to for slow leaks etc.

If you want high shotcount buy a different gun, there is a multitude of choices these days. As I said put the funds towards a different modern make instead, will benefit more
Take care

[Luftgewehr100]

We welcome any feedback from the shooting community to improve our product. Any feedback received we will certainly take it on board to help future shooters and current customers.

I appreciate much You answering in this thread and express Your position.

I now ordered a complete carbine cylinder on amazon.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...RVBDHM05&psc=1

I will test Your cylinder on my HW100KT and post my experience in this forum after christmas.

[Bladerunner too]

Does anyone know what happened to the (blown up)cylinder, has it been sent off anywhere for inspection,investigation ect.

[Fenton Shooting]

Does anyone know what happened to the (blown up)cylinder, has it been sent off anywhere for inspection,investigation ect.

We have asked the question to the manufacture with the reply.
On visual inspection if you can see vice marks on the diameter then a crushing force was used via a vice (most would use wood blocks so not to leave marks and damage the finish) so no marks would be visible.

Over filling without viewing the customers own gauge they fitted and reading off the scale they would be reluctant as you can expect to give the supplier this. If looking for a refund on the item.

Over tighting. As a previous poster has posted the standard cylinder supplied via Weihrauch the gauge end and valve end are usually very tight to remove giving the impression they should be tightened up to this high torque when refitting, high torque is not necessary as the air in the chamber will seal the fittings in place. High Torque can twist the cylinder and weaken its structure.

Crossing of the threads Damaging the Valve / Gauge end when striping the old cylinder or corrosion resulting in the ends being very tight to screw up and using large amounts of torque. The thread would not be able to be checked when split open customers fittings/they would be reluctant as you can expect to give the supplier this. If looking for a refund on the item and aware they were hard to screw in.

This is one the main reasons we have stopped selling the tube only option there is too many factors to go wrong, having the right tools / experience / and safe way to test the cylinder after being built is a risk we are not willing to take. We sell them to Gun shops that are qualified to take the task on. However we feel it is too dangerous. We would like to see other suppliers follow suit or offer a service where they can send the tube to be changed at there facility so it is correctly done and checked safely.

Our complete cylinders are built tested to 260 bar in house before shipping, and then step back to 100 bar over night too check for leaks. Item will arrive to the customer with 100 bar present. If this is not the case then the tube should not be used due to damage in transport or a leaking issue. There is no need for the customer to take or alter anything on the cylinder and taking the cylinder apart can be detected by the manufacturer when sold as a complete unit.

Hope in anyway this can help.

Best Regards
Fenton Shooting

[Shed tuner]

Our complete cylinders are built tested to 260 bar in house before shipping, and then step back to 100 bar over night too check for leaks. Item will arrive to the customer with 100 bar present. If this is not the case then the tube should not be used due to damage in transport or a leaking issue.

You ship them whilst pressurised to 100 BAR ?

[Bladerunner too]

Thankyou,Fenton Shooting for the above reply, Although my post was not really directed to yourself`s (what happened to the tube) more to the (claimant) we all appreciate the comments about IF it had marks ect.

[Fenton Shooting]

I appreciate much You answering in this thread and express Your position.

I now ordered a complete carbine cylinder on amazon.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...RVBDHM05&psc=1

I will test Your cylinder on my HW100KT and post my experience in this forum after christmas.

Thank you for the custom Luftgewehr100

Item Shipped today to you.
We look forward to your review and experience with the item.
Any issues problems feel free to contact us directly.

Thank you for your support.

Fenton Shooting