Webley Supertarget chopping pellets

[series2a]

Just refurbished a supertarget and the pellets seem to be struggling to make it up the barrel,
New spring fitted with plenty of umph,so New piston seal is working,
I took loading tap/barrel out tried a jsb which dropped into the tap but it’s head was poking out,aha I thought,So I tried a wadcutter which stopped short,put it all back together but same thing happened,1 in 3 would fire ok rest either sticking or chopping,
Being into Muskets I muzzle loaded a 4.5mm lead Gamo ball,this works as I load it with the tap shut so it doesn’t go into the tap.Fires ok lol
I’ve run a cleaning rod down the barrel with the tap shut and can’t seem to find any miss match between barrel and loading tap body.
I’m now thinking if I get a dead size .177 rod to check if there is a slight miss match.Its the only thing I can think of.
Any other ideas?

It’s a webley Mk3 Supertarget

[averageplinker]

Hi is it the tap original or a replacement? If it is a replacement I suspect it is more likely to be misaligned.
Did it shoot fine before you rebuilt it? If so has a piece been lost or gone in a different way etc?
Have you established it is chopping pellets by shooting them into soft cloth and examining them? If so you probably know it is misaligned already. Rather than keep poking stuff down the barrel from the muzzle end which may damage the bore or crown I suggest removing the piston innards etc and with the tap closed have a good look through the action, tap and barrel. Is the bore through the tap perfectly circular or does it look impinged by being misaligned to the barrel?
Not sure if this is of help, it is the BBS equivalent of thinking out loud

[andrewM]

Hi is it the tap original or a replacement? If it is a replacement I suspect it is more likely to be misaligned.
Did it shoot fine before you rebuilt it? If so has a piece been lost or gone in a different way etc?
Have you established it is chopping pellets by shooting them into soft cloth and examining them? If so you probably know it is misaligned already. Rather than keep poking stuff down the barrel from the muzzle end which may damage the bore or crown I suggest removing the piston innards etc and with the tap closed have a good look through the action, tap and barrel. Is the bore through the tap perfectly circular or does it look impinged by being misaligned to the barrel?
Not sure if this is of help, it is the BBS equivalent of thinking out loud

I was about to make exactly the same suggestions. You might like to fire a pellet or two into a bucket of water, which should produce a clean pellet afterwards. Place a thin piece of paper over the bucket, to prevent the splash back, which could wet the barrel.

It is quite difficult to see what is down the cylinder with a torch because of the distance but it should produce a guide. It sounds to me as if a new tap has been introduced at some stage. Quite what to do to re-align tap with barrel is a complex question, to which I do not know the answer!

It is strange that two in three are sticking; you would think there would be consistency with all three.

I understand the taps were bored through as part of the barrel, so were a perfect fit in each instance.

A

[bill57]

Remember that the tap can be misaligned laterally or vertically. If misaligned vertically, it indicates that the tap is either being closed too much, or not enough. I put a score into the inside of the pellet skirt and check it's position in the tap before closing and firing. The recovered pellet can then be examined to see where it is being chopped, left or right, or top or bottom.

[series2a]

I was about to make exactly the same suggestions. You might like to fire a pellet or two into a bucket of water, which should produce a clean pellet afterwards. Place a thin piece of paper over the bucket, to prevent the splash back, which could wet the barrel.

It is quite difficult to see what is down the cylinder with a torch because of the distance but it should produce a guide. It sounds to me as if a new tap has been introduced at some stage. Quite what to do to re-align tap with barrel is a complex question, to which I do not know the answer!

It is strange that two in three is sticking; you would think there would be consistency with all three.

I understand the taps were bored through as part of the barrel, so were a perfect fit in each instance.

A

As to the question did it fire ok before,I don’t know as it was never fired by me,stupid really but it looked all original,It May have been left because it wasn’t shooting correctly,I did do a quick clean of the barrel before it was stripped though,I’ll try shimming it see if it makes any difference.
Thanks for the ideas though.

[series2a]

Remember that the tap can be misaligned laterally or vertically. If misaligned vertically, it indicates that the tap is either being closed too much, or not enough. I put a score into the inside of the pellet skirt and check it's position in the tap before closing and firing. The recovered pellet can then be examined to see where it is being chopped, left or right, or top or bottom.

Ok I’ll try that thanks

[andrewM]

Lakey might have a view on this; he knows these rifles well. It certainly sounds as if it is the tap but, if so, what is the solution, I wonder.

A

[series2a]

The tap has worn and is traveling too far to the right,After removing the ball but leaving in the spring (which is just touching the cover plate)she’s shooting every shot,if I overtighten the screw on the tap side it pulls back the tap body and chops them again,if I make a shim that sits on the end of the tap so it lets the screw Not tighten down the tap body but leaves it tight it should leave the body in position and not pull the tap body over.
Otherwise I would be looking at a new tap body for£55 which is never going to happen lol.
Plus I would have to bed in the tap body again and for what I’m going to be using it for it’s not worth it (spinning cans).

[averageplinker]

Good work

[andrewM]

Interesting; it seems you have cracked it.

However, the tolerances on these fittings are very fine. Whilst the rifle is now firing, is it firing accurately and producing groups? Or is the pellet still slightly veering to one side on entry? It is strange that the tap has become worn and I was unaware that by tightening, the tap could be moved. That in turn suggests care must be taken when tightening the tap screw but what is the reference point by which to determine the tightness?!

I don't know how the pellet moves/jumps, in travel, from the tap to the barrel. Thus, is the start of the barrel rather larger and does it then taper inwards, so as to guide the pellet during its flight? Certainly, the tap itself is very slightly tapered inwards at the bottom.

Rgds
A

[hwtyger]

Is it a tapered tap or not?
/In case of Osprey ST: Dunno when they started making the ST but iirc early Ospreys didnt have tapered taps giving problems with pellets.
Webley fixed this by fitting a tapered tap.
In case of tapered tap; make sure its on the right way around. It can be fitted either way.
The wrong way and the pellet will stick out on top (wont fall deep enough)

Edit: see you fixed the problem. Nice work

[series2a]

It’s shooting decent groups,I’m using a PH16m rear sight but a Ruger Front sight which I’ve adapted to fit the barrel,It’s got a Bead Barlycorn type not unlike an old Bsa,But Just managed to find a PH Matchmaker that fits the Dovetail. Hopefully it won’t be too high as the Ruger is slightly taller.Even Managed to find a couple of Diopter Holders. (Protek)
Thanks for the ideas guys
Atb pete.

[andrewM]

It’s shooting decent groups,I’m using a PH16m rear sight but a Ruger Front sight which I’ve adapted to fit the barrel,It’s got a Bead Barlycorn type not unlike an old Bsa,But Just managed to find a PH Matchmaker that fits the Dovetail. Hopefully it won’t be too high as the Ruger is slightly taller.Even Managed to find a couple of Diopter Holders. (Protek)
Thanks for the ideas guys
Atb pete.

You were fortunate to solve the problem, I think.

What is a PH16m rear sight? Are you fitting a peep sight where the telescopic sight would otherwise be fitted, ie on the ramp? I did this with a Webley Omega (the peep sight also obtained from Protek) - which has a rather more solid ramp - to great effect. The Mk3 has quite a kick, relatively, so you might get movement on the sight.

A

[Geezer]

You were fortunate to solve the problem, I think.

What is a PH16m rear sight? Are you fitting a peep sight where the telescopic sight would otherwise be fitted, ie on the ramp? I did this with a Webley Omega (the peep sight also obtained from Protek) - which has a rather more solid ramp - to great effect. The Mk3 has quite a kick, relatively, so you might get movement on the sight.

A

The PH16 is a Parker-Hale aperture sight that mounts solidly to the rear of the cylinder because the cylinder is drilled and tapped and the sight screws on with two bolts, making it rock-solid, but expensive to fit. So the vast majority of MkIIIs have the standard sights. It was offered by Webley as a factory option.

The aperture can also be swung out of the line of sight, allowing the open rear sight to still be used. The idea being that you could set the open for short range, say rats, and the aperture for long, say, rabbits.

[andrewM]

The PH16 is a Parker-Hale aperture sight that mounts solidly to the rear of the cylinder because the cylinder is drilled and tapped and the sight screws on with two bolts, making it rock-solid, but expensive to fit. So the vast majority of MkIIIs have the standard sights. It was offered by Webley as a factory option.

The aperture can also be swung out of the line of sight, allowing the open rear sight to still be used. The idea being that you could set the open for short range, say rats, and the aperture for long, say, rabbits.

Thanks for that, Geezer. I am now better informed! Would be interested to try out that combination but would need someone to fit the PH site. Perhaps Protek has the means to do this.

A