300 bar conversion to 232 bar filling

[Jesim1]

While factually accurate, none of the components between the cylinder outlet & the rifle should ever experience anymore pressure than the rifle max fill because that's when the cyl valve gets shut.
That's why the DIN airgun charging kits have a 225bar swp rather than 300bar

A point that anyone thinking of buying a rifle that fills above 225bar needs to note.

Having dealt with compressors and dive cylinders for years in the dive industry this was all too apparent to me when I got back into air guns, and there is a general "ignorance" about all things pressure related which is a bit scary when reading some of the posts I see. An example of this is people being told to buy "adaptor blanking plugs" so they can seal off their charging whip to see how much pressure in in the cylinder - which can be upwards of 300bar being used on a 232 bar "well used" whip

I have no issue with differing opinions to mine, but it is another matter when the advice given is potentially dangerous

James

[RobF]

While factually accurate, none of the components between the cylinder outlet & the rifle should ever experience anymore pressure than the rifle max fill because that's when the cyl valve gets shut.
That's why the DIN airgun charging kits have a 225bar swp rather than 300bar

A point that anyone thinking of buying a rifle that fills above 225bar needs to note.

DIN is not limited to 200 bar. You can buy 300 bar DIN kit. With the right kit the 300 bar DIN will fit a 200 bar bottle.

There's a difference between should ever and can ever ... In other words if you didn't shut off the valve when you should have, at 200 bar, then the whole system can get to 300 bar, or certainly over 200 bar. The 300 bar dive cylinder won't shut off when the gun cylinder gets above 200 bar automatically, you have to do that bit yourself. The gun cylinder won't shut off automatically either. With some cylinders varying enormously in how fast they can deliver that pressure there's always that chance it won't be closed when it should have been, which is when 5 threads might not be enough.

Max rifle fill pressure on a Walther LG300 steel cylinder is 300 bar, so it's entirely possible to exceed 200 bar with a 200 bar adapter and still be in spec of both cylinders... except Walther supply a 300 bar DIN adapter with 7 threads.



I suspect the tolerances on the thread spec is well over what you need for 200, but then I also suspect they're there for a purpose, ie when you have more than 300 bar for some reason (like a hot day on a fresh 300 bar fill that was done at much colder temp).

[jepho]

Here are a few images of the new adaptor piece put together by Best Fittings. Supplied, despatched and delivered in under 24 hours.

This item allows me to use the 5 thread 232 bar Feinwerkbau adaptor with a quick release hose. The hose is connected via a 7 thread adaptor to a 300 bar breathing air refill cylinder.

It means I don't have to rigidly connect the PCP air cylinder directly to the filling port of the breathing air cylinder, where it seems to precariously sit at 90 degrees to the vertical shell of the cylinder. Great Job! A very nice high quality item weighing in at about 240 grams (8.5 ounces in old money)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tu7cf2kdeh..._3004.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3oz2zculax..._3003.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehgvnqoeph..._3002.JPG?dl=0

[angrybear]

DIN is not limited to 200 bar. You can buy 300 bar DIN kit. With the right kit the 300 bar DIN will fit a 200 bar bottle.

There's a difference between should ever and can ever ... In other words if you didn't shut off the valve when you should have, at 200 bar, then the whole system can get to 300 bar, or certainly over 200 bar. The 300 bar dive cylinder won't shut off when the gun cylinder gets above 200 bar automatically, you have to do that bit yourself. The gun cylinder won't shut off automatically either. With some cylinders varying enormously in how fast they can deliver that pressure there's always that chance it won't be closed when it should have been, which is when 5 threads might not be enough.

Max rifle fill pressure on a Walther LG300 steel cylinder is 300 bar, so it's entirely possible to exceed 200 bar with a 200 bar adapter and still be in spec of both cylinders... except Walther supply a 300 bar DIN adapter with 7 threads.



I suspect the tolerances on the thread spec is well over what you need for 200, but then I also suspect they're there for a purpose, ie when you have more than 300 bar for some reason (like a hot day on a fresh 300 bar fill that was done at much colder temp).

I see from their web site they have upgraded but in my printed catalogue there is only one type of DIN "airgun charging kit" & that is the MDE 225bar swp with the spacer attached to fit a 300bar cylinder.
In the post you quoted my last line indicates that anyone with a gun that fills over 225bar needs to bear in mind the swp of their charge kit.

But if your rifle max fill is under 225bar it is perfectly safe to use 225bar rated filling kit, unless you're a **ck-wit with no knowledge or common sense in which case you probably shouldn't be using HP charging gear in the first place, because you will watch your pressure gauges & close the cylinder valve before your rifle over pressures.

Do Walther also supply a 300bar hose & gauge ? because if you're using a separate airgun charging kit those items might also only be 225bar swp

[RobF]

I see from their web site they have upgraded but in my printed catalogue there is only one type of DIN "airgun charging kit" & that is the MDE 225bar swp with the spacer attached to fit a 300bar cylinder.
In the post you quoted my last line indicates that anyone with a gun that fills over 225bar needs to bear in mind the swp of their charge kit.

But if your rifle max fill is under 225bar it is perfectly safe to use 225bar rated filling kit, unless you're a **ck-wit with no knowledge or common sense in which case you probably shouldn't be using HP charging gear in the first place, because you will watch your pressure gauges & close the cylinder valve before your rifle over pressures.

Do Walther also supply a 300bar hose & gauge ? because if you're using a separate airgun charging kit those items might also only be 225bar swp

Sorry I thought you were attaching the DIN only being 200 as being that point, hence why I stated that wasn't the case.

DIN is just a standardisation house name. There's 100's of DIN specifications, all shapes and sizes. It's like saying a car is a Ford. Each one actually has a number against it to be specific... I don't know what the ones for 200 or 300 are, but I doubt they are the same.

No Walther don't supply a new hose and gauge because you don't a hose them for filling the gun cylinder.

The adapter is a direct connection from the dive cylinder to the gun cylinder... you unscrew the cylinder from the gun, screw the adapter into the dive cylinder head, then screw on the gun cylinder onto it. You do that last otherwise all the air leaves your gun cylinder.

If you haven't got a 300 bar dive cylinder the 300 bar adapter wouldn't fit, well it would but it would leak.

The 300 bar gun cylinders have gauges on them which read up to 300 bar.

[angrybear]

Sorry I thought you were attaching the DIN only being 200 as being that point, hence why I stated that wasn't the case.

DIN is just a standardisation house name. There's 100's of DIN specifications, all shapes and sizes. It's like saying a car is a Ford. Each one actually has a number against it to be specific... I don't know what the ones for 200 or 300 are, but I doubt they are the same.

No Walther don't supply a new hose and gauge because you don't a hose them for filling the gun cylinder.

The adapter is a direct connection from the dive cylinder to the gun cylinder... you unscrew the cylinder from the gun, screw the adapter into the dive cylinder head, then screw on the gun cylinder onto it. You do that last otherwise all the air leaves your gun cylinder.

If you haven't got a 300 bar dive cylinder the 300 bar adapter wouldn't fit, well it would but it would leak.

The 300 bar gun cylinders have gauges on them which read up to 300 bar.

Actually there are only two DIN threads for scuba cylinder use, 300bar or 232bar (iso 12209-2) they are 25x2mm parallel thread with a flat face & rubber seal.
The threads are of a different length (232bar =5 thread, 300bar =7 thread) so that you cannot accidently seal 232bar equipment to a 300bar pressure vessel, being shorter the low pressure version will leak, 300bar will seal to a 232bar cyl as there is no safety risk.

However where the end working pressure is below 232bar it is possible to deliberately include an extra component part to allow a 232bar male fitting to seal in a 300bar female fitting.

My example was the use of the MDE airgun charging kit (for use on sub-surface cylinders which do not include a gauge & bleed as part of the cyl valve assy) where a block including a gauge & bleed is fitted to the cylinder as an extra, this MDE kit is only rated to 225bar swp & is marked as such, but comes pre-fitted with the extension making it 300bar cyl compatible, (although no longer safe on a 232bar cyl ) but the use of these lower swp components is perfectly safe where the SWP of the end use (the rifle) is lower still because the user will close the cyl valve before the pressure builds past those SWP's.

As I pointed out, not very well as it seems, if your rifle is one of the new breed of high pressure fills, you need to ensure all your fill components are 300bar rated.

[gingernut]

I have a 232 bottle which solves these problems.
It's much easier to fill the cylinder direct than faff about with a hose.
And I have a few PCP pistols.

I occasionally use my 300 bar tank to fill a cylinder with the brass spacer from Best Fittings.
Or with the hose and one of their gun specific adapters.

My Walther pistol cylinders are 300 rated and have a 300 adapter so can go straight onto the bigger tank.
I rarely fill them to the full 300.
Usually not enough pressure in the tank.

I fill my HW100 cylinder direct from the 232 cylinder or by hose from the 232 or 300.

Depends on what I've remembered to bring.

Whatever tank I use I control the fill speed and watch cylinder and or tank gauges.

I recently bought a 300 tank with an airgun valve gauge and hose.
I dislike the way it operates and prefer a dive valve.
When the gauge shoots up to max on opening the valve Im not happy!

[RobF]

Actually there are only two DIN threads for scuba cylinder use, 300bar or 232bar (iso 12209-2) they are 25x2mm parallel thread with a flat face & rubber seal.
The threads are of a different length (232bar =5 thread, 300bar =7 thread) so that you cannot accidently seal 232bar equipment to a 300bar pressure vessel, being shorter the low pressure version will leak, 300bar will seal to a 232bar cyl as there is no safety risk.

However where the end working pressure is below 232bar it is possible to deliberately include an extra component part to allow a 232bar male fitting to seal in a 300bar female fitting.

My example was the use of the MDE airgun charging kit (for use on sub-surface cylinders which do not include a gauge & bleed as part of the cyl valve assy) where a block including a gauge & bleed is fitted to the cylinder as an extra, this MDE kit is only rated to 225bar swp & is marked as such, but comes pre-fitted with the extension making it 300bar cyl compatible, (although no longer safe on a 232bar cyl ) but the use of these lower swp components is perfectly safe where the SWP of the end use (the rifle) is lower still because the user will close the cyl valve before the pressure builds past those SWP's.

As I pointed out, not very well as it seems, if your rifle is one of the new breed of high pressure fills, you need to ensure all your fill components are 300bar rated.

Hi AB

No, the Walther Lg300 isn't new. It's been around for about 20 years now give or take a couple.

I didn't know there were only 2 for scuba, there's 100's of DIN specs for all sorts of things.

Yes, it's always possible to add something that allows you to jump up to 300, but as you say you'd hope someone who did that would know not to leave the tap open.

I know your example was with a surface only without a gauge and hose, what I'm trying to say, badly, is that they are still not needed or part of the equation that covers the FWB, Walther, Steyr, Anschutz... forget the whip and gauge. You have the dive cylinder with no gauge n whip, the adapter, and the gun cylinder. They simply screw together, you open the tap and watch the gauge on the gun cylinder. In fact you don't need to because you know they're all 300 bar as far as the Walther is concerned. With the other makes that are only 200 bar they don't supply a 300 bar adapter, because they don't want you filling from a 300 bar. But as you and I know, it's possible and as long as you're familiar with the gear and not a complete dolt, it's safe.

[gingernut]

The HW 100 adapter does seem to fit a 300 bar tank.
Although I havent tried it.

[wobbly bob]

Actually there are only two DIN threads for scuba cylinder use, 300bar or 232bar (iso 12209-2) they are 25x2mm parallel thread with a flat face & rubber seal.
The threads are of a different length (232bar =5 thread, 300bar =7 thread) so that you cannot accidently seal 232bar equipment to a 300bar pressure vessel, being shorter the low pressure version will leak, 300bar will seal to a 232bar cyl as there is no safety risk.

However where the end working pressure is below 232bar it is possible to deliberately include an extra component part to allow a 232bar male fitting to seal in a 300bar female fitting.

My example was the use of the MDE airgun charging kit (for use on sub-surface cylinders which do not include a gauge & bleed as part of the cyl valve assy) where a block including a gauge & bleed is fitted to the cylinder as an extra, this MDE kit is only rated to 225bar swp & is marked as such, but comes pre-fitted with the extension making it 300bar cyl compatible, (although no longer safe on a 232bar cyl ) but the use of these lower swp components is perfectly safe where the SWP of the end use (the rifle) is lower still because the user will close the cyl valve before the pressure builds past those SWP's.

As I pointed out, not very well as it seems, if your rifle is one of the new breed of high pressure fills, you need to ensure all your fill components are 300bar rated.

A neat summation.

[wobbly bob]

The HW 100 adapter does seem to fit a 300 bar tank.
Although I havent tried it.

It is too short to seal. You will need the spacer in post # 2.

[angrybear]

Hi AB

No, the Walther Lg300 isn't new. It's been around for about 20 years now give or take a couple.

I didn't know there were only 2 for scuba, there's 100's of DIN specs for all sorts of things.

Yes, it's always possible to add something that allows you to jump up to 300, but as you say you'd hope someone who did that would know not to leave the tap open.

I know your example was with a surface only without a gauge and hose, what I'm trying to say, badly, is that they are still not needed or part of the equation that covers the FWB, Walther, Steyr, Anschutz... forget the whip and gauge. You have the dive cylinder with no gauge n whip, the adapter, and the gun cylinder. They simply screw together, you open the tap and watch the gauge on the gun cylinder. In fact you don't need to because you know they're all 300 bar as far as the Walther is concerned. With the other makes that are only 200 bar they don't supply a 300 bar adapter, because they don't want you filling from a 300 bar. But as you and I know, it's possible and as long as you're familiar with the gear and not a complete dolt, it's safe.

Rob I'm not talking about your specific Walther but PCP filling in general which generally does involve a whip/hose & rifle attachment.
There are more & more rifles starting to appear that fill above 225bar and anyone who has a sub surface cylinder (ie no gauge or bleed built in to the valve) needs to check their charge kit before they open the valve & crank 300 bar through it.

gingernut yes I also fill direct from the cyl without a hose because I screw my rapid bottles straight in to the outlet DIN to hose step-down fitting, yes initially the gauge fly's up towards the stop but then the bottle valve opens & it drops to the bottle contents pressure before slowly filling to my chosen max, 200bar sub 12 or 220bar FAC.

DIN is Deutsches Institut fur Normung the German equivalent of our British standards so yes they have probably millions of specs but only 2 are scuba valves.

[RobF]

I see what you mean now. Yes that’s worth thinking about.

I’m sure the specs are good enough as 300 is the test pressure for 200 bar but just like I think the extra two threads are there for a reason I also think your gear should be rated for what you intend to put through it. That’s why I’m not keen on the insert.

The other reason is I now remember seeing one jammed in a club bottle meaning it was no good for any bar whatsoever as it had moved, turned and then been tightened down onto. New head.

[gingernut]

It is too short to seal. You will need the spacer in post # 2.

I’ve only ever used it on my 232.
Makes sense that it won’t seal on the bigger tank.
But it has more threads than my Walther ,FWB ,Rohm adapters.

[hmangphilly]

I don't like filling rifle bottles direct from rigid cylinder connection .

Much rather have a quick fill on the end of a nice floppy whip. Much more friendly to the threads .