Lincoln Jeffries / BSA 1906 Bayonet Under Lever Rifle

[gingernut]

Gareth
My brain is working better today.
I thought this rifle was a second batch 1906 BSA.
I never thought it was an LJ.

Searches and a look at Garvins Gallery seem to confirm this.
The Piled Arms Mark is just behind the rear sight and the words on the cylinder are what I would expect.

Am I missing something?

[Gareth W-B]

Gareth
My brain is working better today.
I thought this rifle was a second batch 1906 BSA.
I never thought it was an LJ.

Searches and a look at Garvins Gallery seem to confirm this.
The Piled Arms Mark is just behind the rear sight and the words on the cylinder are what I would expect.

Am I missing something?

Hi Patric, cheers for the further thoughts, but don't stress over this my friend, coz I certainly ain't -- it's all just part of the intrigue and fun that is air gun collecting.

The serial number definitely relates to a 6th batch BSA production run rifle circa 1907 however, and yes there is a piled arms logo between the rear sight and the loading tap also, but the action cylinder definitely reads as quoted in post No.6 as above, so the quandary continues ... Where is Lakey when you need him (lol )? Atb: G.

[gingernut]

That's how those BSAs were marked.

If you search the cylinder wording it will take you to Garvins Gallery and examples of your BSA rifle.

If it was an L J it would still be in the Gingernut collection.

[Gareth W-B]

That's how those BSAs were marked.

If you search the cylinder wording it will take you to Garvins Gallery and examples of your BSA rifle.

If it was an L J it would still be in the Gingernut collection.

Wow! That is SUPERBLY interesting and that is really reassuring information, too, as it suggests the chap who first alerted me to the fact that this rifle may be a BSA bitsa (as well intentioned as I believe his information was), has got it quite wrong, and has jangled the alarm bells unnecessarily?

Will put a temporary hold on the sale at £225 then, and dig a little deeper, here. Many thanks for the heads-up. Still finding this fun though, as "every day is a school day" as I may have said once or twice in the past?

[Gareth W-B]

Wow! That is SUPERBLY interesting and that is really reassuring information, too, as it suggests the chap who first alerted me to the fact that this rifle may be a BSA bitsa (as well intentioned as I believe his information was), has got it quite wrong, and has jangled the alarm bells unnecessarily?

Will put a temporary hold on the sale at £225 then, and dig a little deeper, here. Many thanks for the heads-up. Still finding this fun though, as "every day is a school day" as I may have said once or twice in the past?

Okay, stage one -- and seemingly quite conclusive -- digging deeper done. It would appear then that according to the wealth of info accessed via that there wibbly.wobbly.interweb, that the rifle being discussed here, is indeed a 100% genuine 6th batch BSA .177 Mod H circa 1907 featuring a factory fitted straight-grip shotgun style stock (an available option at that time).

Now to the interesting and very relavent bit. Apparently at that time (the first decade of the 1900s), the Lincoln Jeffries group owned the patent to this style of air rifle, and as we know, LJ paid BSA as sub contractors to manufacture these rifles for them in their BSA factory in Birmingham.

BSA also wanted to produce their own branded versions of this style of under lever air rifle at that time, too, so they struck an agreement with The Lincoln Jeffries Company where by they (BSA) could manufacture such rifles under licence in a separate part of the BSA factory at Broadheath, Birmingham.

As a caveat to the license issued by LJ to BSA to manufacture said rifles being badged as BSA, LJ insisted that The Lincoln Jefferies air rifle company was duly credited with the rifle design in question via the aforementioned clear and concise wording on top of each BSA's action tube/cylinder shown at post no.6 on this thread.

Wow! What a wonderful information gathering ride this has been, so yep, every day is a school day, and thank God for it. Will still wait to have my findings as detailed here rubber stamped by Lakey and Garvin before I bill my rifle as being a completely authentic and genuine BSA however, just in case (so watch this space ). Atb: G.

[Binners]

Not Chinese then

[Gareth W-B]

Not Chinese then

Nope -- nor Turkish.

[gingernut]

Not Chinese then

Stop it Pete.

I think that’s right Gareth.
I’ve had a few of these H models.
But never an L J.

My mate had an L J which was a joy to hold and shoot.
He used to hang it on his dining room wall and refuse to sell it to me!

[CLOGGER]

BSA also wanted to produce their own branded versions of this style of under lever air rifle at that time, too, so they struck an agreement with The Lincoln Jeffries Company where by they (BSA) could manufacture such rifles under licence in a separate part of the BSA factory at Broadheath, Birmingham.

Re. Gareth's statement
Is this correct that BSA made their own branded rifles in a different part of the factory to the LJ branded ones?
Were they producing both the BSA and LJ brands at any one point in time, or did they only begin manufacture of a BSA batch when a LJ batch had been completed?
I had assumed that the same plant and machinery were used for both brands, only in different batch lots at different times.
Can one of the experts put me right on this?
Regards, Clogger

[Gareth W-B]

Re. Gareth's statement
Is this correct that BSA made their own branded rifles in a different part of the factory to the LJ branded ones?
Were they producing both the BSA and LJ brands at any one point in time, or did they only begin manufacture of a BSA batch when a LJ batch had been completed?
I had assumed that the same plant and machinery were used for both brands, only in different batch lots at different times.
Can one of the experts put me right on this?
Regards, Clogger

I used to think along the same lines as you, but after reading Huttles94's post on this thread (post no.8) in which he said that LJ was still producing his rifles in a separate workshop at that time (circa 1906/7), I searched the Wibbly.Wobbly.Web, and found much writing which supported this premise, but with the caveat that not all LJs were made away from the BSA factory, although most, it seems, were.

[Huttles94]

Re. Gareth's statement
Is this correct that BSA made their own branded rifles in a different part of the factory to the LJ branded ones?
Were they producing both the BSA and LJ brands at any one point in time, or did they only begin manufacture of a BSA batch when a LJ batch had been completed?
I had assumed that the same plant and machinery were used for both brands, only in different batch lots at different times.
Can one of the experts put me right on this?
Regards, Clogger

Lincoln Jeffries started to make his iconic rifle in the early 1900s at his Steelhouse lane workshop. The first batch of Lincoln jeffries rifles were made from 1901-1904. This was serial number 1 to 129.

After this LJ went to BSA and showed them his design and soon after the first batch of Lincoln Jeffries rifles made by BSA were released and after that, both LJ made rifles and BSA made ones were released simultaneously.

I cant remember exactly why LJ went to BSA but I think it was mainly since LJ only had a small team of skilled staff and so his output was very limited. So a keen business man, he goes to the largest arms maker of the time in England. It just so happened that BSA at the time were in a bit of trouble. The UK was not at war and so arms manufacturing was a bit slow. So when LJ came along with his air rifle, BSA jumped at the chance since what else did they have to do? So it made a nice income for LJ and BSA.

That is also why Lincoln made rifles are rarer than BSA made ones, simply less were made. Sure they were made in different factories but from the same designs so parts can be interchangeable.

The last batch of Lincoln rifles to roll out of his factory were in 1912/13. Do not know why LJ stopped but that was it. After this, all were made by BSA (I think BSA dropped the Lincoln jeffries pattern markings on their rifles around the same time or maybe a bit earlier, not sure).