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Thread: Lincoln Jeffries / BSA 1906 Bayonet Under Lever Rifle

  1. #31
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    I may be missing something (nothing new there!) but this seems to be a Lincoln from the air cylinder onwards, judging from the cylinder markings and knurled tap screw. However, the trigger block and stock appear to be from a BSA Improved Model. I'd roughly date the Lincoln to 1906 (from the knurled tap - roughly, as I say as the option of this type of tap was offered as a retro fit by LJ, so could arguably be found on an upgraded BSA) and the BSA to 1907 (from the SN).

    Bearing in mind parts can interchange and the number of old rifles that are parted out on t'bay for example, it would not surprise me if a previous owner made one working gun from two non working guns.

    Without the full story, we can only guess from the evidence before us.

    John

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie & John View Post

    I may be missing something (nothing new there!) but this seems to be a Lincoln from the air cylinder onwards, judging from the cylinder markings and knurled tap screw. However, the trigger block and stock appear to be from a BSA Improved Model. I'd roughly date the Lincoln to 1906 (from the knurled tap - roughly, as I say as the option of this type of tap was offered as a retro fit by LJ, so could arguably be found on an upgraded BSA) and the BSA to 1907 (from the SN).

    Bearing in mind parts can interchange and the number of old rifles that are parted out on t'bay for example, it would not surprise me if a previous owner made one working gun from two non working guns.

    Without the full story, we can only guess from the evidence before us.
    Hi John. I had an improved Mod. D about twenty years ago that had the same tap set-up, so that doesn't phase me or suggest it is anything other than original to me, and also, and as stated earlier, as the barrel sports the BSA piled arms logo between the rear sight and the loading port, it is doubtful that it is from an LJ?

    Further, as the trigger action assembly and butt are clearly BSA, and as the wording on the cylinder is as I have learned, the same as seen on many early BSAs from the period when LJ still owned the patient (according to the wibblywobblyinterweb), I think that since the alarm was raised by a well wisher that this gun may be a bit of a bitsa, that I have been chasing ghosts which simply don't exist?
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  3. #33
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    As the car salesman says
    ‘ They are all like that Sir ‘

    I’m confident you can sell it as a Pukka BSA.
    The knurled tap screw doesn’t make it anything else.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gingernut View Post

    I think that’s right Gareth.
    I’ve had a few of these H models.
    But never an L J.
    Cheers Patric, but I will hold off proclaiming this as job done until one or both of the two aforementioned gents throw their twopennith in, too, as the third man on my oracle list along with Lakey and Garvin, namely our Josie & John, is still out with the jury ...
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by gingernut View Post

    As the car salesman says
    ‘ They are all like that Sir ‘

    I’m confident you can sell it as a Pukka BSA.
    The knurled tap screw doesn’t make it anything else.
    Yep, agreed.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth W-B View Post
    Further, as the trigger action assembly and butt are clearly BSA, and as the wording on the cylinder is as I have learned, the same as seen on many early BSAs from the period when LJ still owned the patient (according to the wibblywobblyinterweb), I think that since the alarm was raised by a well wisher that this gun may be a bit of a bitsa, that I have been chasing ghosts which simply don't exist?
    Hi Gareth,

    H The Lincoln was only ever used on the cylinders of standard length Lincolns. Some early BSAs referenced the Lincoln patent on the cylinder thus, leading some collectors to (incorrectly) call these rifles Lincolns:

    THE BSA AIR RIFLE___LINCOLN JEFFRIES’ PATENT
    MADE BY THE BIRMINGHAM SMALL ARMS COMPANY LTD

    However, if a rifle has H the Lincoln on the cylinder, that cylinder was originally sold as a Lincoln. Several variations of Lincoln cylinder stamping exist and having looked through my records, the markings on your rifle tend to appear on Lincolns around the 23000 range

    Kind regards,

    John

  7. #37
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    Hi Gareth

    Sorry to get to this party late... FWIW I humbly defer to John M on this question - it does sound like a bitsa after all.

    If you email me the pics I'd be glad to host them for you.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvin View Post

    Hi Gareth

    Sorry to get to this party late... FWIW I humbly defer to John M on this question - it does sound like a bitsa after all.

    If you email me the pics I'd be glad to host them for you.
    Ahh, so that is two of my three oracles still thinking that the cylinder is off an LJ whereas the rest of the rifle is BSA, then, it seems? ... Will keep the sales thread on hold until Lakey has had a look at this thread, though, although I now imagine his prognosis will marry-up with yours and John's?

    As for the photos of this eclectic beast my fine fellow, they are all on said sales thread, but I'll buzz them over to you, for including here, too (cheers chum ).
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  9. #39
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    Just noticed that my very early Lincoln serial 1630 straight stock model has the locking screw for the tap in a different position to the later H marked model with pistol grip. My locking screw is vertically at the bottom. The H is facing horizontally towards the back of the rifle, with the tap closed.

    Baz
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  11. #41
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    Thanks Danny. The photos look great.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth W-B View Post
    BSA also wanted to produce their own branded versions of this style of under lever air rifle at that time, too, so they struck an agreement with The Lincoln Jeffries Company where by they (BSA) could manufacture such rifles under licence in a separate part of the BSA factory at Broadheath, Birmingham.
    Re. Gareth's statement
    Is this correct that BSA made their own branded rifles in a different part of the factory to the LJ branded ones?
    Were they producing both the BSA and LJ brands at any one point in time, or did they only begin manufacture of a BSA batch when a LJ batch had been completed?
    I had assumed that the same plant and machinery were used for both brands, only in different batch lots at different times.
    Can one of the experts put me right on this?
    Regards, Clogger

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLOGGER View Post

    Re. Gareth's statement
    Is this correct that BSA made their own branded rifles in a different part of the factory to the LJ branded ones?
    Were they producing both the BSA and LJ brands at any one point in time, or did they only begin manufacture of a BSA batch when a LJ batch had been completed?
    I had assumed that the same plant and machinery were used for both brands, only in different batch lots at different times.
    Can one of the experts put me right on this?
    Regards, Clogger
    I used to think along the same lines as you, but after reading Huttles94's post on this thread (post no.8) in which he said that LJ was still producing his rifles in a separate workshop at that time (circa 1906/7), I searched the Wibbly.Wobbly.Web, and found much writing which supported this premise, but with the caveat that not all LJs were made away from the BSA factory, although most, it seems, were.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLOGGER View Post
    Re. Gareth's statement
    Is this correct that BSA made their own branded rifles in a different part of the factory to the LJ branded ones?
    Were they producing both the BSA and LJ brands at any one point in time, or did they only begin manufacture of a BSA batch when a LJ batch had been completed?
    I had assumed that the same plant and machinery were used for both brands, only in different batch lots at different times.
    Can one of the experts put me right on this?
    Regards, Clogger
    Lincoln Jeffries started to make his iconic rifle in the early 1900s at his Steelhouse lane workshop. The first batch of Lincoln jeffries rifles were made from 1901-1904. This was serial number 1 to 129.

    After this LJ went to BSA and showed them his design and soon after the first batch of Lincoln Jeffries rifles made by BSA were released and after that, both LJ made rifles and BSA made ones were released simultaneously.

    I cant remember exactly why LJ went to BSA but I think it was mainly since LJ only had a small team of skilled staff and so his output was very limited. So a keen business man, he goes to the largest arms maker of the time in England. It just so happened that BSA at the time were in a bit of trouble. The UK was not at war and so arms manufacturing was a bit slow. So when LJ came along with his air rifle, BSA jumped at the chance since what else did they have to do? So it made a nice income for LJ and BSA.

    That is also why Lincoln made rifles are rarer than BSA made ones, simply less were made. Sure they were made in different factories but from the same designs so parts can be interchangeable.

    The last batch of Lincoln rifles to roll out of his factory were in 1912/13. Do not know why LJ stopped but that was it. After this, all were made by BSA (I think BSA dropped the Lincoln jeffries pattern markings on their rifles around the same time or maybe a bit earlier, not sure).

  15. #45
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    IMHO. it looks a lovely gun, I much prefer the straight hand stock.

    Who knows what has happened to it over the years to keep it shooting, I can't see that BSA would have fitted that tap knurled screw, to take up the slack of a worn tap as that was an LJ patented "improvement". But who knows.

    The Link screw looks a new addition, but it doesn't detract from the gun.

    It's certainly in better condition than my LJ, No.465. wrong stock fitted, either due to requiring a shorter stock or trigger guard tang breaking. Later sights fitted, link screw bodged, now replaced with a knibbs version, holes where the trigger screw go through the action elongated maybe to allow a longer main spring to be fitted, but worst of all rubbed down by some ape, maybe they thought they'd re-blue it. Cretins....

    keep it, enjoy it.

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