FT scopes - why so high?

[SuffolkRifle]

In my case it's because getting up twenty times in a 40-shot comp from a seated position is hard enough, and getting up from a prone position would be exhausting.

I think most FT shooters will tell you - maybe counter-intuitively - that they find the seated position to be the more stable.

There's also the consideration that there should be less risk of shooting the grass.

On a FT course the target should be clear from 21cm above the ground at the gate (taken from the BFTA Main Shoot Rules 2019), which, from a prone position should be visible, but how many course setters check that?
Prone is the most stable position for shooting, far less movement than seated - but given the average age of FT'ers others have probably made the valid excuses

[thumbhole]

Prone and FT ...

So off the elbows and nothing supported forward of the elbows and butt off the ground in the shoulder.

That position can be very solid, as seen in 50m prone shooting, with the use of a sling, but in FT the targets are not all the same height from the shooter. So a well set sling would not accommodate all targets from the prone position.

... then there's the obstacles in the way to the target ... grass, fallen logs etc.

I still reckon if someone really put the time in then they could shoot prone with a sling and do really well despite the changes in angles.

It's probably as much to do with ( as mentioned above ) how comfortable sitting is, on a big padded bag, for the average age FT shooter.

Equation ... ( Average FT shooter age / Fitness level ) x Prone = Ouch ... Me back!

By the size of the butt hooks I have seen in pictures, would they not touch the ground if shot prone, would that class as touching the ground even though they were in the shoulder.

[RobF]

On a FT course the target should be clear from 21cm above the ground at the gate (taken from the BFTA Main Shoot Rules 2019), which, from a prone position should be visible, but how many course setters check that?
Prone is the most stable position for shooting, far less movement than seated - but given the average age of FT'ers others have probably made the valid excuses

As a region that shoots both hft and ft and sees both camps swap and dabble, when hft shooters try prone to ft rules they soon find that being unable to rest the gun or the hand on the ground or against a peg is no where near as stable as a good ft sitting position, which granted is difficult for the new shooter to pull off but is more stable.

But we could always strap a scatt or sideview on if that’s doubtful and compare for interest.

[SuffolkRifle]

As a region that shoots both hft and ft and sees both camps swap and dabble, when hft shooters try prone to ft rules they soon find that being unable to rest the gun or the hand on the ground or against a peg is no where near as stable as a good ft sitting position, which granted is difficult for the new shooter to pull off but is more stable.

But we could always strap a scatt or sideview on if that’s doubtful and compare for interest.

As an ex-rimmie dioptre 25 yard shooter and now shooting FT seated, if the shooter has a 'correct' prone position, then it's almost as stable as bench resting - there's too much blood flow with seated which is compensated for by pads - either on the knee or the arm. At a guess, the majority of airgun shooters tend not to have done competition shooting in other sports and not had the prone position taught them - looking at HFT shooters in the past, they are often not in the 'right' position (arms/hands/angle of body to rifle) and they rely on the peg to give them stability.

[zephyr]

As an ex-rimmie dioptre 25 yard shooter and now shooting FT seated, if the shooter has a 'correct' prone position, then it's almost as stable as bench resting - there's too much blood flow with seated which is compensated for by pads - either on the knee or the arm. At a guess, the majority of airgun shooters tend not to have done competition shooting in other sports and not had the prone position taught them - looking at HFT shooters in the past, they are often not in the 'right' position (arms/hands/angle of body to rifle) and they rely on the peg to give them stability.

And the butt rested on the ground!

[bozzer]

By the size of the butt hooks I have seen in pictures, would they not touch the ground if shot prone, would that class as touching the ground even though they were in the shoulder.

Some butt hooks may touch the ground if the prone was HFT prone. If it's proper prone with the shooter resting on elbows
then the shoulder, and buttpad/hook, will be well clear of the ground.

The option is there for people to shoot prone in FT ... no one does. Why would they?

Lying in the mud ... having to get up and down ( average age of FT shooters isn't young ) ... needing the flexibility and strength in neck/back muscles ( average age of FT shooters isn't young ) ... having to learn how to use a sling and have problems with targets at different heights ( try proper prone on a target that is 15 feet up a tree ).

As opposed to ... sitting on a padded bag in a position that means most can shoot under an inch at 50m, and the better shots can half that, with some practice. So the sitting position is accurate enough, and far more comfortable, compared with all the disadvantages of proper prone.

[thumbhole]

LOL So its become an old, fat, inflexible mans sport over the years then, should we not be encouraging younger flexible people in to the sport. ld grin:
Also I suppose over the years that the target placement has favoured that as well getting away from shots that could be taken in the prone position.

[Rich]

Target placement is a matter of design and much thought goes into it, or should do. One of the factors that has to be taken into consideration, if you have a course that is largely permanently out, is how you maintain it. In our case that means we try to avoid having targets that are below waist high. In the early part of summer the grass grows so fast that a course which is fully visible on Saturday afternoon can have a number of targets obscured by grass on Sunday morning. Being older and stiffer in the joints than some of the lithe chaps on here, it's also a lot easier to paint and maintain targets where you can get at them easily.

Thus, for many practical reasons a seated position is favourite.

As an aside, at our league shoot last Sunday the top score was 36 ex 40 by a chap whose age I will estimate around 60 give or take, and the next was 35 ex 40 by a chap who is much nearer 20 than 30.

[thumbhole]

Target placement is a matter of design and much thought goes into it, or should do. One of the factors that has to be taken into consideration, if you have a course that is largely permanently out, is how you maintain it. In our case that means we try to avoid having targets that are below waist high. In the early part of summer the grass grows so fast that a course which is fully visible on Saturday afternoon can have a number of targets obscured by grass on Sunday morning. Being older and stiffer in the joints than some of the lithe chaps on here, it's also a lot easier to paint and maintain targets where you can get at them easily.

Thus, for many practical reasons a seated position is favourite.

As an aside, at our league shoot last Sunday the top score was 36 ex 40 by a chap whose age I will estimate around 60 give or take, and the next was 35 ex 40 by a chap who is much nearer 20 than 30.

So experience plays a big part with age then Rich. I know what you mean about the grass growing some of our targets are in an open field. Depending on time of year and the crop growing some of them go on two metre polls.

[bozzer]

"Should we not be encouraging younger flexible people in to the sport?"

Amateur sport in the UK, including major sport like cricket is seeing a very obvious trend ...

Youngsters up to the age of about 16 - 18 participate ... and then people go off to explore careers, beer and the mysteries of carnal desires.

As the enthusiasm of promotion and the dream job, and the temptations of Eve, dwindle, then a number of folk turn once again to something that satisfies the need to compete, and the comfort of comradeship ... sport.

As folk realise their bodies can no longer cope with such physical activities like football or rugby etc ... then they turn to less demanding ( so they think ) sports like golf and shooting.

So FT and HFT will always have a high percentage of middle aged to senior participants. The majority of folk that are willing to put the time in to organise such events will almost certainly be of these age groups. So even if more 'younger' folk are attracted, the rules will probably be biased towards the more mature shooters. Check out the whinging over the years, in either sport, if shooters are asked to move out of their comfort zone.

"You expect me to range the targets myself? Balderdash ... Pass me that 50x scope. My God ... Now I'm being asked to lean back a few degrees to shoot a target up a tree ... Someone invent a contraption that can be adjusted so that I can just stay in my 'easy' position, and still get the rifle on target ... Ah ... Thank you Rowan."

If FT shooters played football they'd have an engineering company design a mechanical leg that kicked the ball for them.

Target placement ... Over the years I would imagine that target placement has become more varied simply to test the best shooters and to introduce an element of added interest, rather than having all targets at the same level ... and to keep Rowan's profit margins healthy.

[eyebull]

If FT shooters played football they'd have an engineering company design a mechanical leg that kicked the ball for them.

I did chuckle

[thumbhole]

"Should we not be encouraging younger flexible people in to the sport?"

Amateur sport in the UK, including major sport like cricket is seeing a very obvious trend ...

Youngsters up to the age of about 16 - 18 participate ... and then people go off to explore careers, beer and the mysteries of carnal desires.

As the enthusiasm of promotion and the dream job, and the temptations of Eve, dwindle, then a number of folk turn once again to something that satisfies the need to compete, and the comfort of comradeship ... sport.

As folk realise their bodies can no longer cope with such physical activities like football or rugby etc ... then they turn to less demanding ( so they think ) sports like golf and shooting.

So FT and HFT will always have a high percentage of middle aged to senior participants. The majority of folk that are willing to put the time in to organise such events will almost certainly be of these age groups. So even if more 'younger' folk are attracted, the rules will probably be biased towards the more mature shooters. Check out the whinging over the years, in either sport, if shooters are asked to move out of their comfort zone.

"You expect me to range the targets myself? Balderdash ... Pass me that 50x scope. My God ... Now I'm being asked to lean back a few degrees to shoot a target up a tree ... Someone invent a contraption that can be adjusted so that I can just stay in my 'easy' position, and still get the rifle on target ... Ah ... Thank you Rowan."

If FT shooters played football they'd have an engineering company design a mechanical leg that kicked the ball for them.

Target placement ... Over the years I would imagine that target placement has become more varied simply to test the best shooters and to introduce an element of added interest, rather than having all targets at the same level ... and to keep Rowan's profit margins healthy.

I was right then, an old mans sport, will have to gain a few stone, so I can rest the Rowan adjustable Hamster on my growing belly.

[RobF]

As an ex-rimmie dioptre 25 yard shooter and now shooting FT seated, if the shooter has a 'correct' prone position, then it's almost as stable as bench resting - there's too much blood flow with seated which is compensated for by pads - either on the knee or the arm. At a guess, the majority of airgun shooters tend not to have done competition shooting in other sports and not had the prone position taught them - looking at HFT shooters in the past, they are often not in the 'right' position (arms/hands/angle of body to rifle) and they rely on the peg to give them stability.

I've got zero pulse, and no pads.

But as someone that has shot prone .22, I don't us a sling, and slings are not commonly found in FT because they're not so practical as you need to adjust them for each target to get a natural point of aim, something as a county coach I'm acutely aware of.

[RobF]

"Should we not be encouraging younger flexible people in to the sport?"

Amateur sport in the UK, including major sport like cricket is seeing a very obvious trend ...

Youngsters up to the age of about 16 - 18 participate ... and then people go off to explore careers, beer and the mysteries of carnal desires.

As the enthusiasm of promotion and the dream job, and the temptations of Eve, dwindle, then a number of folk turn once again to something that satisfies the need to compete, and the comfort of comradeship ... sport.

As folk realise their bodies can no longer cope with such physical activities like football or rugby etc ... then they turn to less demanding ( so they think ) sports like golf and shooting.

So FT and HFT will always have a high percentage of middle aged to senior participants. The majority of folk that are willing to put the time in to organise such events will almost certainly be of these age groups. So even if more 'younger' folk are attracted, the rules will probably be biased towards the more mature shooters. Check out the whinging over the years, in either sport, if shooters are asked to move out of their comfort zone.

"You expect me to range the targets myself? Balderdash ... Pass me that 50x scope. My God ... Now I'm being asked to lean back a few degrees to shoot a target up a tree ... Someone invent a contraption that can be adjusted so that I can just stay in my 'easy' position, and still get the rifle on target ... Ah ... Thank you Rowan."

If FT shooters played football they'd have an engineering company design a mechanical leg that kicked the ball for them.

Target placement ... Over the years I would imagine that target placement has become more varied simply to test the best shooters and to introduce an element of added interest, rather than having all targets at the same level ... and to keep Rowan's profit margins healthy.

The good news is that despite everyone thinking they can bolt on a solution and win comps, the Grand Prix series has been won by someone with a £1000 value rig lacking any said wizardry.

As it turns out the physical shape of the top FT shooters has changed over a decade or so. While there are some bigger bodies around if you look at the top 20 their more likely to have a good BMI and quite likely to do what some would be considerable physical exercise, or have a job that keeps them in shape.

[Muskett]

The field target sports started out to emulate hunting. Rats, rabbits squirrels, and wood pigeon, which are found at differing heights. Plus the practical of shooting over long grass, hedges, gateposts and around fallen logs. For practical hunting at close range around the farmyard, fields and woods, then there aren't so many opportunities to go prone. Its multi position: prone, sitting, and standing.

As the sport developed the guns became more and more "targetised" and preferred position became sitting. Sitting allows to get above the long grass and take targets that are placed high off the ground. Practice the position well enough and its accurate enough. Its not more stable than a properly sorted prone system, but prone can't do all the targets.

Experience helps, but heart rate control will also matter. The fitter you are and better able to control heart rate the more accurate. If a benchrest shooter didn't have to touch the rifle they wouldn't as human twitching isn't any help.
Contorting a body to fit a rifle is no good at all, which is why rifles have so much adjustment. They no longer are a sporting, carry around the field, rifle. Nor do they have a whopping spring in them to tame.
Scope super high does the getting to fit the body and sweet spot trajectory. High mag with side wheel the rangefinding. FT makes the range estimate more a human input skill.
Field target sports have rules and whatever the rules shooters will find equipment to give them advantage. No rules then everyone would carry around benches, rangefinders, and wind meters.


I have a bad back, absolutely shot out, and find prone and sitting difficult. Can't do competitive target shooting now. In the field I use Quod Sticks, or shoot from a sorted platform. Its play the game any way you can.