Diana 430L observations

[sd5782]

USA poster here. I have always liked my HWs and Dianas. I am more of a break barrel guy, but couldn't pass up a good price on a beautiful gun. I have always felt that Dianas gave up some efficiency with the fat and very long transfer port. I was quite surprised then on opening up this sliding breech underlever that the TP was still a very large 4mm. It was quite short perhaps 6-8mm but hard to measure as it was recessed.

I know Dianas aren't as popular on your Island except maybe with Barry. I really like my Dianas, especially those from the 80s. More specs and a little write up here. I hope the link doesn't violate any rules. Unfortunately not a lot of technical discussions of springers on most of the US sites.

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA...topic=157430.0

[Dennis74]

Nice read! Haven't seen one of these "in the wild" too in Holland. I look forward to the accuracy part of your review!

$150 was a nice price too

Best regards,
Dennis

[Geezer]

Yup, keep it coming. Dianas are underrated or not well known over here, these days, for a number of boring reasons. They used to be (1960s-80s) in a different place.

[jonnyone]

An interesting read fella. Bending the barrel to correct some alignment issues seems a tad excessive though? Could you not have shimmed the rear mount or perhaps bought a droop compensating mount system? Anyhow I hope it worked for you and you find a sweet spot with the gun.
I picked up a stutzen version of this gun in .22 and it is a thing of some beauty. It is very accurate, and whilst it gives out approx 11.4 from memory its firing cycle is a little harsh. What I have found out almost by accident is that with its predecessor the model 46 stutzen, and I'm sure the 430 stutzen is the same- is that the barrels are actually shorter than base models. This makes for a correspondingly shorter cocking arm and increased cocking effort. I'm no weakling but the 46ST and the 430ST are the hardest guns to cock that I own. I think a youth may struggle with them. The 46ST is in.177 which needs to use a stiffer spring to top 11ft llbs. Again scarificing something in smoothness in firing cycle.
However in saying all this I am still a fan of the marque and agree it can be tweaked to improve on the factory gun.
Like you I'm a big fan of Diana's guns of old with the 45 holding a special attraction for me.
Dave

[Shed tuner]

for $150 I'd buy one !

[Drew451]

Interesting read, Steve and I look forward to reading more. I hope you find it's ultimate sweet spot. What a steal at $150. I recall you put up a good thread on Diana 24s / 27s over on the Dianawerk collective.
Dianas still have their fans over here, mostly folk old enough to remember their "Original" heyday.

[sd5782]

An interesting read fella. Bending the barrel to correct some alignment issues seems a tad excessive though? Could you not have shimmed the rear mount or perhaps bought a droop compensating mount system? Anyhow I hope it worked for you and you find a sweet spot with the gun.
I picked up a stutzen version of this gun in .22 and it is a thing of some beauty. It is very accurate, and whilst it gives out approx 11.4 from memory its firing cycle is a little harsh. What I have found out almost by accident is that with its predecessor the model 46 stutzen, and I'm sure the 430 stutzen is the same- is that the barrels are actually shorter than base models. This makes for a correspondingly shorter cocking arm and increased cocking effort. I'm no weakling but the 46ST and the 430ST are the hardest guns to cock that I own. I think a youth may struggle with them. The 46ST is in.177 which needs to use a stiffer spring to top 11ft llbs. Again scarificing something in smoothness in firing cycle.
However in saying all this I am still a fan of the marque and agree it can be tweaked to improve on the factory gun.
Like you I'm a big fan of Diana's guns of old with the 45 holding a special attraction for me.
Dave

Yes those stutzens are pretty. A 46 stutzen was at this show for $425 and caught my eye too. I always though that flip up breech looked interesting too. On looking into the 430L, it seems it has perhaps an inch longer cocking lever. Probably pretty insignificant when cocking that 11-12fpe spring. That is why I went a bit less.

As to barrel bending, do a bit or research and you will see it is not so unusual. We are talking an almost imperceptible amount. It is best accomplished on break barrels though. The Dianas I have from the "safety" era all seem to be harsh and oversprung to me in stock form. Here in the USA it is that .125-.128" diameter wire stock spring. That is probably in the 46/430 guns too with their shorter strokes. A stock HW .122 spring often fits the Diana guide nicely and with a top hat gets rid of all the harshness and still gets nearly 12fpe. It is almost too easy.

[sd5782]

Interesting read, Steve and I look forward to reading more. I hope you find it's ultimate sweet spot. What a steal at $150. I recall you put up a good thread on Diana 24s / 27s over on the Dianawerk collective.
Dianas still have their fans over here, mostly folk old enough to remember their "Original" heyday.

Yes Drew, the 24D. I still want to sometime get some parts to try to make it what it could have been. I would need a beater 24D to experiment with, and a beater 25D for parts. I don't remember if I tried the 27 piston in the 24 or the 24 piston in the 27, but the stroke came out the same, and the combination cocked and worked. The 27 piston at 200 grams is 60grams lighter than the 260 grams of the 24D which it shares with the 26/28. Perhaps a shorter 25 piston along with a 25 cocking arm would get the added stroke, but perhaps the cocking slot would need modified. I think the 24D while very nice, suffered from the accountants and could have been in the same league or better than the HW30. It actually has nicer feel when shouldered.

[jonnyone]

Yes those stutzens are pretty. A 46 stutzen was at this show for $425 and caught my eye too. I always though that flip up breech looked interesting too. On looking into the 430L, it seems it has perhaps an inch longer cocking lever. Probably pretty insignificant when cocking that 11-12fpe spring. That is why I went a bit less.

As to barrel bending, do a bit or research and you will see it is not so unusual. We are talking an almost imperceptible amount. It is best accomplished on break barrels though. The Dianas I have from the "safety" era all seem to be harsh and oversprung to me in stock form. Here in the USA it is that .125-.128" diameter wire stock spring. That is probably in the 46/430 guns too with their shorter strokes. A stock HW .122 spring often fits the Diana guide nicely and with a top hat gets rid of all the harshness and still gets nearly 12fpe. It is almost too easy.

Another school day for me on the forum! To be honest I'd probably still shim the rear mount or get a droop compensating one but I guess re aligning the barrel achieves the same thing. Unfortunately I've had two Dianas that have come to me with an upward inclined barrel but I suspect these are due to the owner having slipped and released barrel during cocking process. I've had to re align in both instances.
It beats me as to why manufacturers would want to build a downward inclined barrel into their guns. HW used to be prime suspects bit it seems Diana going same way. Most unfortunate but I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason for it.
I have one of the last model 46s off the shelf from SWS in Germany in standard trim and it's a good rifle. The transfer port is lengthy and it loses efficiency due to this but it's a safe method of loading. The 430 is also another safe gun also with stepped arrestor in the cocking stroke.
I'd be very interested to hear further feedback on your take on the gun in time.
Best regards
Dave

[Geezer]

Yes Drew, the 24D. I still want to sometime get some parts to try to make it what it could have been. I would need a beater 24D to experiment with, and a beater 25D for parts. I don't remember if I tried the 27 piston in the 24 or the 24 piston in the 27, but the stroke came out the same, and the combination cocked and worked. The 27 piston at 200 grams is 60grams lighter than the 260 grams of the 24D which it shares with the 26/28. Perhaps a shorter 25 piston along with a 25 cocking arm would get the added stroke, but perhaps the cocking slot would need modified. I think the 24D while very nice, suffered from the accountants and could have been in the same league or better than the HW30. It actually has nicer feel when shouldered.

Really interesting. Please keep us updated if that proceeds.

Handling-wise, I prefer my later, larger-tube 26 to my earlier (Webley Air Wolf) 24. But it is surprisingly lower powered than, say, a BSA Meteor.

The 34 (and variants, 36, 38, “45”) made great sense as the replacement for the 35. Long stroke, polymer seal, adds 4(ish) ft-lbs in the same weight/size envelope and at a highly competitive price, undercutting HW, Webley, etc. Great move.

The smaller 24/26 guns made economic sense for M&G. But they never seemed to me to match the excellence of the 25D, 25DS, 27, 27S.

Probably a good business decision - the market for 7-9 ft-lbs rifles had shrunk and almost everyone wanted (in the U.K.) “full legal hunting power” or (the US) “1000 fps” with .177” pellets.

But a shame.

My standard answer to anyone looking for a good mid-power springer is the Diana 27. It’s rather sad that my recommendation is something that has been out of production for about 35 years. I don’t think it’s been bettered though. Even if the HW30S runs it close.

[Barryg]

I have never owned a 430L but I understand that it is a smaller version of the 460, I have owned a 460 for over 10 years and it is still one of my favourite airguns

I guess that the 430L would have most of the same fetchers as the 460 that I like, that it is lightweight for a underlever it has a one piece compression tube made from a solid bar, a quite fast ABT and the bit I really like is a no play cocking lever when cocked, the fulcrum is solid with two spring disk washers so no play something the others cant boast lol

I cant comment on the newer Diana's but my 460 has no droop or rise, the TP is one of the shortest of any springer and it has a spring closing breech so with the right seal should outlast all other sliding breech guns seals.

Any pics of your 430L

[jonnyone]

Another quick read through this thread reminded me that I have the Diana 440TH in the rack upstairs. This would appear to be a truncated version of the Diana 470TH- which I also have.
I haven't really checked or taken that much notice but I'm guessing that these actions are based around the 460 Mag actions? The 470 I have here is a 7j import from SWS and is typically very throttled back, whilst the 440 was bought off here and is UK spec in .177 and is again wouldn't win a one finger cocking competition any day of the week and is very snappy but accurate in its manners.
I haven't checked but I'm now wondering if the 470 is based on the 460 Mag whereas the 440 could simply be a 430 with muzzle weight and thumbhole stock?
I know one thing for sure, Diana missed a trick by not bluing the actions on the TH range- I'm no fan of the coating they put on them and think they would be far more handsome with traditional bluing.
Question to you Steve. Is the 440TH a model commonly available over in the states? It appears to have been dropped from the range over here despite in my mind being better balanced than the 470TH?
Dave

[sd5782]

Another quick read through this thread reminded me that I have the Diana 440TH in the rack upstairs. This would appear to be a truncated version of the Diana 470TH- which I also have.
I haven't really checked or taken that much notice but I'm guessing that these actions are based around the 460 Mag actions? The 470 I have here is a 7j import from SWS and is typically very throttled back, whilst the 440 was bought off here and is UK spec in .177 and is again wouldn't win a one finger cocking competition any day of the week and is very snappy but accurate in its manners.
I haven't checked but I'm now wondering if the 470 is based on the 460 Mag whereas the 440 could simply be a 430 with muzzle weight and thumbhole stock?
I know one thing for sure, Diana missed a trick by not bluing the actions on the TH range- I'm no fan of the coating they put on them and think they would be far more handsome with traditional bluing.
Question to you Steve. Is the 440TH a model commonly available over in the states? It appears to have been dropped from the range over here despite in my mind being better balanced than the 470TH?
Dave

I am not really an expert on lots of the modern Dianas here in the USA. It seems though that we don't see some of the variations that are available overseas. Posts often reference catalog items that show European guns that we can't get. Sometimes a distributor, or someone with connections to the company gets some imported. It is all about dollars I guess, so we didn't get the 280 as all Americans seem to want is stuff that is powerful. Oh well.

As to your 440TH, I looked, and it does indeed seem to be based on the 340L, and surely the 470 must be based on the 460 as is that 98K that is out now. Quite curious that you have the long stroke 470 at low power and the 440 tuned up. I bet that you would like them reversed. One fun thing about Diana though is that they are not afraid to try different configurations on the same platform like one might see when buying a car. This is a great marketing move as it keeps discussions and interest elevated. This also keeps us airgun addicted crazies on the lookout for ones we don't have. I don't care for that matte finish either. I have a 31Professional in 22 which has the large heavy muzzle weight on the carbine length barrel with that finish.

Also curious is that Diana here in the US have traditionally been priced perhaps 25% less than an HW. For even money like I read is what it is in England, I would probably buy an HW most every time. Too bad that the pricing there wasn't better, as it seems like the market would be decent.

[Geezer]

I am not really an expert on lots of the modern Dianas here in the USA. It seems though that we don't see some of the variations that are available overseas. Posts often reference catalog items that show European guns that we can't get. Sometimes a distributor, or someone with connections to the company gets some imported. It is all about dollars I guess, so we didn't get the 280 as all Americans seem to want is stuff that is powerful. Oh well.

As to your 440TH, I looked, and it does indeed seem to be based on the 340L, and surely the 470 must be based on the 460 as is that 98K that is out now. Quite curious that you have the long stroke 470 at low power and the 440 tuned up. I bet that you would like them reversed. One fun thing about Diana though is that they are not afraid to try different configurations on the same platform like one might see when buying a car. This is a great marketing move as it keeps discussions and interest elevated. This also keeps us airgun addicted crazies on the lookout for ones we don't have. I don't care for that matte finish either. I have a 31Professional in 22 which has the large heavy muzzle weight on the carbine length barrel with that finish.

Also curious is that Diana here in the US have traditionally been priced perhaps 25% less than an HW. For even money like I read is what it is in England, I would probably buy an HW most every time. Too bad that the pricing there wasn't better, as it seems like the market would be decent.

I’m pretty sure the 430 and 440 use the same action.

The 460 and 470 use a longer one.

Diana’s stated velocity figures for the US-spec 430/440 are 870 FPS in .177”, 670 in .22”. So about 11-14 ft-lbs, similar to the 34 (etc) break-barrels.

For the 470, the figures are 1120 and 890. So 19-25 ft-lbs.

They list the 460 at 1200 and 1000fps. So up to 31 ft-lbs. However, tests I’ve seen by actual shooters usually return max energy figures around 23-25 ft-lbs.

[sd5782]

Oh, I forgot to mention that I did some very limited accuracy shooting with the 430L. I cleaned the barrel vigorously first, and didn't really wait long enough for it to settle in before testing. After setting it aside with about 25 discouraging shots and scope adjustments, I picked it up again for 2 ten shot groups that were 1/2 inch at 22 yards off sandbags with AA Express and AA Fields. I think it will be a shooter, and I really do like the feel of the stock on this gun. At 10.4 fpe the shot cycle is nice and cocking while still stout is quite manageable. Lessen relearned: let the barrel settle in after cleaning and tuning, and also, some scopes need a couple shots to settle in after adjustment.