Packham gets General License revoked!!!!

[short-carabine]

From Portzy's link above:

"Why are we here? In a nutshell the 3 general licences that cover the control 16 wild bird species were not lawful as NE did not have an appropriate assessment of need to underpin them (even though they have been using them for years). A court case due to be heard today/tomorrow (brought by environmental campaigners) would have found against NE and NE felt it therefore had no choice but to revoke the licenses. It seems clear that there has been a failure at NE. They should have taken remedial steps far sooner so as not to end up in this situation now - there should be accountability for this at the appropriate time."

Departmental fail, as I thought. My guess is that the head of the head of NE will be on the block and he'll be the fall guy

[Clank]

Portal to apply for a license is not functioning.

Absolutely no surprise there then.

What a complete cluster F***.

[Clank]

Word is (after getting through on the Dog n Bone) that there will be an individual licence available (to be applied for) later today. As from the 29th, Monday next week, the system "should be fully functioning". You will have to apply for a license for every species that you need to shoot, so if you need to shoot seven different species, you will need seven different licenses. The rather overworked and under pressure chap on the other end of the 'phone was not sure whether or not this would mean on each and every one of your permissions too - I suspect it will be, but not for long. I also enquired as to the length of this document and I was given the impression that it wouldn't be a rendering of War and Peace. Doesn't matter anyway, I know how to copy and paste!

I was also given the distinct impression that there was something happening to issue a new revised type of General License. Guarantee though it will not include the C.. Peckem species!

[Rocket launcher]

Borrowed this from Guns on Pegs. Interesting read

Here is the information received from Rishi Sunak MP, at 8pm this evening (24th April). Thank you to D’Arcy Wyvill of Constable Burton Estate for making contact with Rishi Sunak to get this response.

Thank you for contacting me about the Natural England removing the 3 General Licenses tomorrow.

Like you, I was shocked to hear this news and extremely disappointed. I fully appreciate and understand the considerable disruption this action causes to our agricultural community and rural economy and the livelihoods of many.

As soon as I heard the news yesterday, I was in touch with the relevant Minister to strongly convey my thoughts. This evening, I spent over an hour with the Minister and the Chief Executive of Natural England (and her team). Together with many rural MPs, we have expressed our frustration in no uncertain terms and impressed various things for NE and DEFRA to now act on to improve the situation.

Why are we here? In a nutshell the 3 general licences that cover the control 16 wild bird species were not lawful as NE did not have an appropriate assessment of need to underpin them (even though they have been using them for years). A court case due to be heard today/tomorrow (brought by environmental campaigners) would have found against NE and NE felt it therefore had no choice but to revoke the licenses. It seems clear that there has been a failure at NE. They should have taken remedial steps far sooner so as not to end up in this situation now - there should be accountability for this at the appropriate time.

But in terms of practical next steps, this is what I currently believe will be happening and what I am pushing for:

From midnight tomorrow the 3 general licences covering control of 16 bird species will be removed

Starting Monday, NE will be issuing new general licenses that will cover “the vast majority” of existing uses of the 3 licenses. These new licenses will be more specific (so as to be more legally sound, each license will have to cover one specific species together with one set of circumstances. eg wood pigeon and economic damage to crops).

It will take “weeks, not months” for all these new general licenses to be issued (perhaps more than 30 licenses)

A schedule of what new licenses are coming when may be available as soon as tomorrow but by Monday

NE are now working with key stakeholders (specifically bodies like BASC, Countryside Alliance, GWCT, NFU etc) to get from them the list of priority bird control situations that need to be covered ASAP

In the interim, until a new general license for your particular situation has been issued, NE are working on a simplified “individual license/notification” system which should be up and running tomorrow night. This would involve a landowner filling in an online form, ~5 mins of various tick boxes an brief explanation of what they want to control and why. Ideally they should then receive a very quick, if not immediate, response giving them permission to keep controlling for those circumstances so for the time being. The legal basis for this is being worked out as we speak.

I have impressed upon NE the importance of putting this all in a simple guide for farmers, gamekeepers, landowners etc which NE say they plan to have ready tomorrow. I have also asked for them to consider establishing a simple hotline number for people to call for advice

As the list of new licenses comes online please let me know if your particular use case is not covered. I have secured a contact at NE that I can feed these into for them to prioritise.

In the summer, NE will conduct a full review of the license system
I am very sorry this has happened. I know the real disruption and concern it is causing you and our community. Rest assured, I am fully focused on this issue and working as hard as I can to improve the situation.

I believe the Ministers in charge understand the gravity of this change.

I will be in touch again when I have more information. I would be most grateful if you could forward this email to any of your friends and colleagues who you believe will be affected by this.

Thank you again for contacting me and also for your support even though you have every right to feel let down by what has happened.

Kind regards,
Rishi

Rishi Sunak
Member of Parliament for Richmond (Yorks)
Minister for Local Government

[Clank]

I would also add this: Please be calm and collected when you are filling out the forms online. "Because I want to Kill Them" really is NOT a good reason. Good reasons could be to prevent damage to crops, prevent the spread of disease and so on. Cra**ing on my car does not cover it.
You need to be above the likes of that toad Chris Packham and his myopic view of the world. It did not escape my notice that he Crowd Funded this challenge, couldn't do with him sticking his hand in his own pocket now could we?

Hopefully someone has lit a fire underneath the offices of (or better still the backsides of) Natural England and this will get sorted out. Bunny Wabbits and those cute little Grey Squirrels will no doubt be occupying the thoughts of the Tree Huggers right now too so Natural England can get there finger out.

Wonder if anyone will give me a CBE, but then I don't think you can get one for being good at picking your nose.

[bighit]

Good find, bighit- an interesting read. Looks like his role was rather "incompatible" with outside interests...(my quote facility seems to have copped out for now!) Wonder if this happened on his watch?

When I was into motor bike trail biking there was a forum called TBM (trail biking magazine) and DEFRA was trying to ban legal green lane use of vehicles and Benyon was in charge then.

I have seen loads of info from one of the forum members who took on the fight himself and wrote to Benyon many times and Benyon was not the easiest guy to deal with.

If I remember right he would not disclose information on FOI requests or at one point he would not reply at all.

The member a guy called Andy was tenacious about it and would not let it drop.

Andy is a shooter also (black powder and targets if I remember right) . Andy could tell you loads about Benyon and his deflection

[angrybear]

Angrybear, on shooting in gardens I disagree.
If its safe to shoot in a garden why not? The Magpie pest is the same just happens to be in the garden not in the field over the fence.

Nothing wrong in shooting in one's garden, targets or pest species. Its the KFC Conservationists that want to make it seem there is a difference.

When NE gets a flood of license applications and then followed by compensation claims they will have to sort their own mess out. Its seems the bureaucrats couldn't right up the laws to fit the use, nor resources to fit what they put down. An own goal by all accounts. Nanny just got her nickers all twisted up.

You seem to have missed my point, Magpies or any other Corvid doing it's natural thing predating on song birds is just nature being nature, both have co-existed in the British Isles since way before people & guns & I really don't think the general licence was ever intended to cover such a matter.

The control of Pigeons & Corvids in agriculture is a totally different matter because the crop &/or livestock is an investment & the private property of someone being grown for food/profit.

The reason used to confront something in court is not necessarily WHY it's being challenged it is only HOW it can be challenged,
All NE had to do was go to court & point out that it's totally impossible for them to physically check every application, so it is for the individual applicant to assess, decide & if required justify why they need to shoot.

[bighit]

[RobF]

Basc advice on Section 4

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploa...r-guidance.pdf

[Rocket launcher]

Reading the Give letter
It's the labour governments fault
Ah well there's a thing

[aris]

Bizarrely, a positive article from the Daily Fail:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-PIGEONS.html

[Black Beard]

Petition for the BBC to sack Packham:

https://www.change.org/p/bbc-bbc-to-sack-chris-packham

[aris]

Word is (after getting through on the Dog n Bone) that there will be an individual licence available (to be applied for) later today.

I think the question is - how limited is it? Will it be linked to a specific area or piece of land? Will it cost anything?

[bighit]

I think the question is - how limited is it? Will it be linked to a specific area or piece of land? Will it cost anything?

some reports are saying one specific license per bird and one per permission .

no one will know until its in black and white .


From sacs

STOP PRESS: PLEASE SHARE
LATEST UPDATE ON ENGLISH GENERAL LICENCES AS AT 11.50AM THURSDAY 25TH APRIL

With thanks to SACS member Dan, please see letter from Michael Gove to MPs on the General Licences (GLs) debacle below.

UPDATE FROM SACS:

- The old GLs will cease to be valid from midnight tonight (Thursday 25th). So you cannot control wild birds in the same way until you either have an appropriate Individual Licence (see below) or new GLs have been issued.

- The current plan is for new legally correct GLs to start to be drafted and issued on a prioritised basis from next Monday.

- Previously we were advised that there was to be a new simplified online application process for Individual Licences, which would replace the old GLs until new ones were approved i.e. an interim measure. NE have advised that these simplified Individual Licences will be prioritised e.g. gamekeepers and farmers to the fore. As things currently stand (11.30 am Thursday 25th April) we do not have any information on how this online Individual Licence application system will work, but will keep members informed.

- What we cannot fathom is how on earth interim Individual Licences can be effectively issued to so many, as by the time they are issued the new GLs may hopefully be issued anyway. We will advise as we know more.

- Although new GLs will be issued with work starting on Monday, this will clearly take time and we cannot see how this can be sorted out within 24 hours - within a few days seems more likely. Again, we will advise members as we know more.

- A number of suggestions, including an excellent suggestion by a senior SACS gamekeeper member and adviser, have been put forward on how GLs can be reissued more quickly with certain added wording.

- In relation to the new GLs, we do not yet know the format for the new GLs, but we are advised that they may be on a more species specific basis.

NATURAL ENGLAND CRITICISM

On behalf of members affected by this NE GL issue, SACS welcomes all steps by Natural England to get new GLs up and running quickly.

We fully understand that Natural England, like so many Government agencies across the UK, has lost staff and resource due to severe cutbacks. We totally empathise with them and are fortunate to have members south of the border with strong working relationships with NE on many levels. Some of our members work for NE or on NE projects.

What we have here is a proper cock-up - that's just the reality of it. To be clear, despite the last minute legal direction from NE legal team to revoke General Licences, NE has had many weeks to get to grips with this legal challenge, which was to many of us 'old news'. That said, the principle issue is not the NE legal cock-up in how old GLs were issued for 8 years, which can effectively be resolved by new legally correct GLs being issued, but the unacceptable manner in which NE announced a revocation of GLs with less than two days notice. That was unacceptable and has caused our members and so many others considerable concern.

So where now? Going forward, we all need to work better together. We have had issues in the past where SACS has been justly critical of agencies and agencies justly critical of SACS. It's simply part of the breadth of our work and the challenges presented by our work - it is about a mature approach to partnership working. The end result of this dialogue has been a better, warmer and far more effective working relationship where we deal with problems in a friendly, proactive and proportionate way. There are lessons to be learned here and we look forward to working positively with Natural England on many other matters.

For sure, the NE short notice revocation announcement was poor judgement, especially when so many of us knew the legal issue for weeks before, but please let's moderate the criticism of NE and its hard-working staff. There have been some really nasty things said about NE and none of this helps take us forward from this situation. Respect and courtesy are essential. This cock-up will be resolved. This is not a ban on shooting and as a result we will likely have stronger and clearer General Licences that plonkers such as Avery and Packham can no longer legally challenge.

We will keep members updated as we know more.

[aris]

And here is me thinking that all these licenses are reviewed thoroughly each year by environmental experts and lawyers, and then re-issued based on current data and needs

Silly me.