Packham gets General License revoked!!!!

[Geezer]

....and in the real world, how many less Pigeons, Crows etc will be shot?
Not many.

I nearly said that. The authorities have a bit more to do.

But that does not mean we should encourage ignorance of the law.

[223AI]

A change to the General License has been needed for some time in my opinion. People have used it as an excuse to shoot wildlife when there is no real problem at a location. Hopefully the new license will be more area / problem specific; a corvid in your garden isn't a problem, but there are those who will shoot it under the General license, believing they can as it appears on the list. The revocation of the license doesn't mean that this method of control has ceased, a provision has been made for those with a need to control a pest species, can still apply for an interim "individual license" to do so from 25th April at gov.uk.
The important thing is to make everyone aware that this license is being revoked. Perhaps admin will make this thread a sticky and email or PM its members of this important change so all its members are informed of it.

Are you for real? A corvid in your garden is a problem to any nesting birds in the area!

[RobF]

Are you for real? A corvid in your garden is a problem to any nesting birds in the area!

So is a GSW. What’s your point, that predators shouldn’t be allowed to predate?

[223AI]

Excellent well put post. Far too many people are blatting away at birds for no other reason than ‘just because I can’ and claiming they’re doing it under general licence.

Shooting pigeons and crows in your garden isn’t protecting farmers crops and preventing spread of disease.

Obviously there’s a need for farmers and country folk to control numbers for reasons listed under the general license but every Tom dick and Harry have been using it as an excuse to shoot birds unnecessarily.

Those who legitimately shoot known pest birds can still continue to do so by applying for an individual license.

And another one, corvids are a problem for a number if reasons and should be controlled!!

Do you want to apply for the 5 or 6 bird species that cause issues on the 6 farms I shoot? Assuming separate licences per species as with cormorants or herons that's 36 licences I have to potentially apply for!


No wonder we're in this mess with such a poor understanding even among shooters!

[223AI]

So is a GSW. What’s your point, that predators shouldn’t be allowed to predate?

What is a GSW?

Yes that is exactly my point, predators should have their numbers controlled by humans as humans have created an ecosytem with very few apex predators and the added pressure to songbirds who are already struggling uncontrolled predation will be a problem!

Do you actually kill Bambies? If so why?

[Hunkyfunkymunky]

I'd like to know if any of the shooting organisations had been told about this, has there been any dialogue with any spokespeople within the shooting fraternity and if not, why?


I'm involved with 2 freshwater fishing organisations and for the last 5 years, I've been try to get culling orders for Cormorant, Heron and Gooseander. Hours have been spent on research, watching the river and lakes, logs of species and numbers kept on a database, photographs and video footage taken, all of our work has resulted in nothing. The EA and Angling Trust are pushing the agenda for clubs, syndicates and private fisheries to apply, they do and they get nowhere as someone finds a tiny anomaly, that is so insignificate, it's a joke. The applications are submitted within days of them being returned, amended and sent back, then another issue that has no relation to the application rears it's head.

It make you wonder why the EA exists, it does nothing to protect the fish and fishing stocks, the very thing they were set up to do, useless.

[Spanner.]

BASC Fees = Paying for their fancy HQ and company Range Rovers, not much use for anything else. They were happy to see Lead banned a while back.

[Spanner.]

There will certainly be many applications made by those who do not need such a license and it may indeed swamp the system of license issue. This inevitably will cause delay to those genuine applications where control is necessary. The original poster, bullbarrel, this forum's system administrator, who signed off his post with "Time for all of us to apply for a license and let them see how workable their new procedure is?" should moderate his own post accordingly with this in mind. If your need for an interim individual license isn't genuine, don't apply. The general license has run its course in this area for pest control and has been a very effective strategy, but now it needs refining from a blanket measure, so it can focus on locations that are still a problem and leave well alone those areas that are not. Bear in mind its primary function as a pest species control; it is not a fun time recreational license for personal entertainment.

Is your Sir Name Packham, what PC BS.

[Rodd]

I think the protection of crops bit MAY come under schedule 4 of the wildlife and countryside act, although as RL states GL04 is also the licence which covers it so a bit of a contradiction and which one takes precedent ? Confirmation definitely required

This is from Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981, Section 4 (England & Wales)

"(3)Notwithstanding anything in the provisions of section 1 or any order made under section 3, an authorised person shall not be guilty of an offence by reason of the killing or injuring of any wild bird, other than a bird included in Schedule 1, if he shows that his action was necessary for the purpose of—

(a)preserving public health or public or air safety;

(b)preventing the spread of disease; or

(c)preventing serious damage to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, [F3, fisheries or inland waters]."

Same as GL04, 05 & 06?

As above, which takes precedent a law still on the statutes or revoked licences?

Rod

[RobF]

What is a GSW?

Yes that is exactly my point, predators should have their numbers controlled by humans as humans have created an ecosytem with very few apex predators and the added pressure to songbirds who are already struggling of uncontrolled predation will be one a problem!

Greater Spotted Woodpecker. Quite the nest raider with the tools to get into nests others can’t.

In or directly over my garden this year...

Rook
Crow
Jackdaw
Magpie
Buzzard
Peregrine
Tawny
Starling
GSW
Green Woodpecker
Woodie
Stock dove
Bull
Gold
Chaffinch
Siskin
Blue
Great
Coal
Long tailed
Nuthatch
House sparrow
Dunnock
Blackbird
Gulls (various)

Are you suggesting that you know how to balance all that out to some ideal? The same logic of doing that would suggest that feeding the cute cuddly species is also causing an inbalance and attracting predators in by providing them with a breeding food source.

[RobF]

BASC Fees = Paying for their fancy HQ and company Range Rovers, not much use for anything else. They were happy to see Lead banned a while back.

Probably something to do with lead poisoning of waterbirds which has been a problem recently observed over the last 150 years. The C in their name is not about conserving shooting.

[223AI]

Greater Spotted Woodpecker. Quite the nest raider with the tools to get into nests others can’t.

In or directly over my garden this year...

Rook
Crow
Jackdaw
Magpie
Buzzard
Peregrine
Tawny
Starling
GSW
Green Woodpecker
Woodie
Stock dove
Bull
Gold
Chaffinch
Siskin
Blue
Great
Coal
Long tailed
Nuthatch
House sparrow
Dunnock
Blackbird
Gulls (various)

Are you suggesting that you know how to balance all that out to some ideal? The same logic of doing that would suggest that feeding the cute cuddly species is also causing an inbalance and attracting predators in by providing them with a breeding food source.

Nothing wrong with attracting predators if the overpopulated ones don't get to leave, and yes the abundant predators of small birds which only covers 3 in your list need to be reduced (along with the fact that people allow their cats to kill wildlife willy nilly).

I can't recall the last time I saw 20+ GSWs in one place at a time, I have magpies and jackdaws, crows in double figures.

[223AI]

Bto puts GSW population at 25-30,000 breeding pairs, RSPB puts magpies at 600,000! Bto also lists magpies as probably being the 2nd most common nest predator after the good old domestic cat.

[bighit]

I'd like to know if any of the shooting organisations had been told about this, has there been any dialogue with any spokespeople within the shooting fraternity and if not, why?


I'm involved with 2 freshwater fishing organisations and for the last 5 years, I've been try to get culling orders for Cormorant, Heron and Gooseander. Hours have been spent on research, watching the river and lakes, logs of species and numbers kept on a database, photographs and video footage taken, all of our work has resulted in nothing. The EA and Angling Trust are pushing the agenda for clubs, syndicates and private fisheries to apply, they do and they get nowhere as someone finds a tiny anomaly, that is so insignificate, it's a joke. The applications are submitted within days of them being returned, amended and sent back, then another issue that has no relation to the application rears it's head.

It make you wonder why the EA exists, it does nothing to protect the fish and fishing stocks, the very thing they were set up to do, useless.

From what I read they only had 2 days notice according to Sacs

from facebook
Quote
Yes, for sure, this legal challenge against the GLs in England was known and on the cards for some time. But the final folding by Natural England was without effective engagement. Less than two day's notice is appalling

[RobF]

Nothing wrong with attracting predators if they don't get to leave, and yes the abundant predators of small birds which only covers 3 in your list need to be reduced (along with the fact that people allow their cats to kill wildlife willy nilly).

I can't recall the last time I saw 20+ GSWs in one place at a time, I have magpies and jackdaws, crows in double figures.

What’s the point in attracting predators to then kill them? Why not just not attract them in the first place, otherwise it seems the only point is to justify killing something. But that apparently isn’t possible. Even though there’s a rare but strange correlation between the loss of apex predators and some man reared birds.

There’s 7 abundant predators of small birds in that list. Not 3.

Crow, Rook, Magpie, Gull, Starling, GSW, Buzzard. Plenty of them around here. In fact the GSW is mentioned on nest box surveys as a threat like cats are.

Beyond that there’s other birds (song birds) which will kill other birds chicks. Only last week I saw a sparrow remove a blue tit from a nest box.

Forgot Robin of my list. I don’t see double figures of them either. Good job because the ones I do see kill 1 in 10 Robins.

It’s a garden. It’s long since not been deemed covered by the general license. If that’s what you are upset about then perhaps the news is news to you, but it’s not new news.