Packham gets General License revoked!!!!

[bighit]

Much we agree on.

Yes, I suspect from the high profile this mess has reached many more Mr Allotment Men will be better informed. I expect he can still get his pigeon pie for dinner in the future, anything less is interference.

I disagree that the legislation is to stop birds being shot. Its got nothing to do with shooting, it should be everything about good wildlife management. Protecting those species that need protecting and allowing pest control for common pests. Pest control may well take the form of shooting.
The mess concerns birds, not rats or rabbits. However, someone better check that too. The bureaucrats have been lazy and messed up. Doesn't stop there is a job to be done.

Rabbits MUST be controlled

Your responsibility to control rabbit numbers
You must obey the law to control rabbit numbers on your property or land. England (excluding the City of London and Isles of Scilly) was declared a rabbit clearance area under the Pests Act 1954.

You must control rabbits on your land in this area. If this is not possible you must stop them causing damage to adjoining crops by putting up rabbit proof fencing. If you don’t take action the Secretary of State for the Environment can enforce control and prosecute if this action is not taken.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rabbits-...ontrol-numbers

Birds MAY be controlled .


I don't see a them saying you could be prosecuted for NOT shooting wild birds
There is a difference

[Muskett]

we already do fund farmers in the UK
https://theecologist.org/2019/jan/03...s70m-taxpayers

£70m? For the scale of the industry thats peanuts. Do some research on the EU Agricultural policy and the scale of the Agri Industry. Its what feeds us.
We are just about to spend £100m on an EU election.

Rabbits, yes I know.
What is the difference between Rabbit crop damage, Woodpigeon damage, and Rook crop damage?

[bighit]

£70m? For the scale of the industry thats peanuts. Do some research on the EU Agricultural policy and the scale of the Agri Industry. Its what feeds us.
We are just about to spend £100m on an EU election.

Rabbits, yes I know.
What is the difference between Rabbit crop damage, Woodpigeon damage, and Rook crop damage?

They each do different scales of damage hence why there is different laws on their control . You will have to ask the Government why they have different laws on their control .

[angrybear]

I've agreed there was a mismatch to what people and the authorities thought was written down. What everyone thought was written down seems was wrong and it took the wackos to point that out. Its not the general policy of pest control that needs mending but the written legislation to match what everyone agrees was working in practice.
Its the civil Servants that messed that up. It means for the last 6 years the law as written was broken by everyone. All because what was written wasn't what was intended nor generally understood by anyone. The panic is its all illegal as the written stands. The exception is those individual licenses.
So it requires fixing.

Have you seen the new & updated GL's as opposed to those you had to apply for ?

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...take-them-gl26
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-to-crops-gl31

[bighit]

Have you seen the new & updated GL's as opposed to those you had to apply for ?

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...take-them-gl26
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-to-crops-gl31

I saw them earlier AB . Short carbine and I were discussing them by PM

The purpose(s) for
which this licence can
be used
This licence can only be used to prevent serious damage* to the
following types of livestock*:
 sheep (including lambs)
 piglets
 domestic poultry and waterfowl and
 reared gamebirds and wildfowl (including released birds while
they are kept*)
*

no mention of song birds ,does that mean garden shooting is not allowed ?

When this licence can
be used
a) Only as a last resort to prevent serious damage*.


b) Before using the licence reasonable endeavours must have been
made to resolve the problem using the lawful methods identified in
Table 1 (unless their use would be impractical, without effect or
disproportionate in the circumstances) and any other lawful methods
that may be appropriate in the circumstances.
c) Reasonable endeavours must continue to be made to resolve the
problem using such appropriate lawful methods alongside use of the
licence.
d) Only undertake lethal control of birds during the breeding season if
lethal control at other times or use of other licensed methods (e.g. egg
destruction) would not provide a satisfactory solution.
e) Any person using this licence must be able to show, if asked by an
officer of Natural England or the Police:
(i) what type of livestock any action under this licence is
protecting;
(ii) what lawful methods have been, and are being, taken to
prevent predation of such livestock by carrion crow or why the
lawful methods have not been taken;
(iii) what measures have been and are being taken to minimise
WML-GL26 [version 3, April 2019] Page 3 of 11
losses to that livestock from other predators and causes; and
(iv) why the threat of predation from carrion crows is sufficiently
serious to merit action under this licence.
Licence users are advised to keep a record or log of predation and
of efforts to address problems by legal methods.

What amounts to “serious damage” for the purpose of the livestock covered by this licence is explained below. (There may be other cases of
“Serious damage”, that is to say is damage to an economic interest which livestock represents that exceeds mere nuisance, minor damage or
normal business risk1
, for which a licence may be granted if an application for it is made.)


woodpigeons

The purpose(s) for
which this licence can
be used
This licence can only be used to prevent serious damage* to crops*
(including fruit and vegetables)
*“Serious damage” is damage to an economic or financial interest that exceeds mere nuisance, minor damage or normal business risk1
.


Again that looks like gardens are not covered or shooting for food .


I note that the date of these were Last updated 13 May 2019 . yet BASC has this on the yesterday https://basc.org.uk/blog/ne-general-...icence-system/

so what is the situation ?

[Muskett]

What if fixing means the end of shooting them ? what will you do then ?

It won't be, too much at stake.. its another attack on country pastimes.

Its early days, we will have a better understanding in a month or two.

[RobF]

I agree my arguments do not match what is written, but then those that wrote it didn't mean it to mean what it did. And that is what the problem is.

It never used to be a problem. Can the goal post be put back where they belong?

It's been found the goal posts were in the wrong place, so no.

[223AI]

They each do different scales of damage hence why there is different laws on their control . You will have to ask the Government why they have different laws on their control .

Pigeons do far more damage to rape than rabbits do

[223AI]

It's been found the goal posts were in the wrong place, so no.

They were in the right place it was the legislation that was wrong, it could be rewritten to put them back where they were.

Homosexuality was illegal not so long ago, they changed the law to fix that, laws and legislation can be changed for the greater good

[bighit]

Pigeons do far more damage to rape than rabbits do

Do pigeons undermine buildings by burrowing under them ? Do pigeons burrow into fields and then cows or horses can put a leg down the hole and become lame and possibly have the horse or cow destroyed?

As i said they do different types of damage so there is a different scale of control

[RobF]

They were in the right place it was the legislation that was wrong, it could be rewritten to put them back where they were.

Homosexuality was illegal not so long ago, they changed the law to fix that, laws and legislation can be changed for the greater good

This is a prime example of the problem.

The problem is very simple. The implementation of the law was wrong as per the law.

There doesn't need to be anything else read into that. But what you do when you do that is firstly dilute your point, and secondly illuminate your own bias. Laws change all the time and they change because of public opinion and because of correction, sometimes from legal challenges. It's a moot point, in the true sense of the word.

[angrybear]

I saw them earlier AB . Short carbine and I were discussing them by PM

no mention of song birds, does that mean garden shooting is not allowed ?

Again that looks like gardens are not covered or shooting for food .

I note that the date of these were Last updated 13 May 2019 . yet BASC has this on the yesterday https://basc.org.uk/blog/ne-general-...icence-system/

so what is the situation ?

The situation is; these are the first of the new GL replacements for GL04/05/06, and as per 04/05/06 there is no need to apply it is automatic cover provided you comply with the terms given

These 2 were deemed most urgent as a direct replacement for GL04 only covering damage/disease to crops/livestock,

They don't cover things like song birds because that was GL06 which is deemed less urgent so will follow in due course.

Shooting purely for food wasn't included in the old GL's, be interesting to see whether it is in the new one's as I know the point has been raised.

[223AI]

This is a prime example of the problem.

The problem is very simple. The implementation of the law was wrong as per the law.

There doesn't need to be anything else read into that. But what you do when you do that is firstly dilute your point, and secondly illuminate your own bias. Laws change all the time and they change because of public opinion and because of correction, sometimes from legal challenges. It's a moot point, in the true sense of the word.

A prime example of what problem non-bambi killer?

And what bias pray-tell?

[223AI]

Do pigeons undermine buildings by burrowing under them ? Do pigeons burrow into fields and then cows or horses can put a leg down the hole and become lame and possibly have the horse or cow destroyed?

As i said they do different types of damage so there is a different scale of control

No they don’t but I’d wager they cause similar economic damage to rabbits!

[bighit]

The situation is; these are the first of the new GL replacements for GL04/05/06, and as per 04/05/06 there is no need to apply it is automatic cover provided you comply with the terms given Yes . how many will follow those terms to the letter though ?

These 2 were deemed most urgent as a direct replacement for GL04 only covering damage/disease to crops/livestock,

They don't cover things like song birds because that was GL06 which is deemed less urgent so will follow in due course.

Shooting purely for food wasn't included in the old GL's, be interesting to see whether it is in the new one's as I know the point has been raised.

My comment in red and my reply to the food bit in blue.

Yet some claim it was and therefore they were misusing the General License for that purpose , how hard is it for those people to understand that ? Or is it a case of" I don't care ,I will do as I please then if caught I will say the general licenses allowed me to do so "