Packham gets General License revoked!!!!

[RobF]

No NE are currently asking people to demonstrate they have tried none lethal methods before applying for a licence which will take 30 days as it stands IF granted, it is a ridiculous farce. Ring them and ask.

Below is a quote from the solicitors who brought the case. I'm not sure on what basis the requirement is for solely NE to be satisfied is, but that would seem to be the crux of it.

This condition states that before issuing these licences Natural England – and not any other body or person – has to be satisfied that there are no alternative solutions to killing wild birds. Natural England has not done that. It has instead told licence users that they must themselves decide whether alternative solutions are ineffective or impracticable.

https://www.leighday.co.uk/News/2019...allenges-Natur

[Spanner.]

Not sure we are comparing Apples with Apples more current state v future required state if they ever sort it.

[JLB]

Will it affect shooting a few for the pot, how would a likely accuser differentiate ? How many is too many to be just for personal consumption ?

John

[Saxmaniac]

I hunt all pest species over two large farms, one arable and one livestock. From what I've read, it's yet to be confirmed, but it may be that pest control for protection of crops remains permissible? Anyway, out of the two farms I know the livestock farmer will be the most upset because corvids take a great deal of his feed and the carrion crows attack his lambs.

I live in town, but I'm fortunate to have a large garden with a lot of wildlife and although I zero my air rifles and target shoot in my garden, I don't shoot corvids or pigeons as they're not pests for me. Besides, I don't believe it would be justified under the terms of the GL. However, during the 25 years I've lived here, I have a seen a great decline in songbirds, many broken shells of stolen songbird eggs on my lawn and a great increase in corvids; no coincidence Sherlock.

My point is, blanket conservation can have a detrimental effect by strengthening the position of already dominant species and therefore wildlife management has its place.

[short-carabine]

No that isn't what is happening. It helps to understand the problem, not react to something which isn't the problem.

What has been said is that NE (and no-one else) has to show that non lethal methods don't work before that license is granted, or else the license isn't lawful and contrary to the law. They are not saying that non-lethal methods have to work, but NE have to know they don't beforehand. NE can't rely on the person/organisation just saying they don't, because the person/organisation under the license is an irrelevance.

Having actually looked into this like you have, I am getting the same understanding, Rob. Very much an issue of legal responsibility.

[short-carabine]

No NE are currently asking people to demonstrate they have tried none lethal methods before applying for a licence which will take 30 days as it stands IF granted, it is a ridiculous farce. Ring them and ask.

NE seem to be required by law to ensure that they are satisfied other methods have been tried. If they don't do this, they are acting contrary to the law. Perhaps a petition to change the law is in order if people are unhappy with NE obeying the law...it might be a more positive step than some petitions out there which are asking for Packham to be sacked from the BBC (ignoring the fact that he isn't legally employed by them, but effectively a self-employed contractor).

[223AI]

Will it affect shooting a few for the pot, how would a likely accuser differentiate ? How many is too many to be just for personal consumption ?

John

1!

As it was before the licences were revoked

[223AI]

From a friend

Interesting and detailed response from Richard Benyon MP:

This issue came about as the result of a legal challenge and as such there is no flexibility other than to suspend the GL. It (the GL) stems from the days of MAFF when there was apparently a requirement to do a regular assessment of the need for a GL. Defra handed the duty over to NE six years ago and it appears that some crucial paperwork did not find its way there, and it has created a loop hole that has been exploited by anti-shooting campaigners.
NE intend to continue with the GL as soon as possible but crucially most species WILL be able to be legally controlled within a few days.
On Thursday there will be a simple form to fill in available on the NE website from the moment the GL falls, to apply for and quickly receive legal authority to control a number of the 16 species covered by the GL. NE will prioritise pigeons (damage to crops) and next will be corvids. There will be three categories under which people can apply. These will be a) damage to livestock (including game), b) public health and safety and, c) conservation.
This is a temporary fix. A new GL will be issued in time but will require the usual processes including consultation.
She said that the campaigners are very keen to expose law breaking so urged all parties to follow the simple process they are putting in place and to remain within the law.

We are expecting further information to come from Natural England and DEFRA over the next few days and as soon as we have something, I will pass it on to you.



With best wishes



Yours sincerely



Michele De Angeli
PA to The Rt Hon Richard Benyon MP

[223AI]

As I say hopefully this backfires and it becomes easier for everyone to lethally control pest species, even you guys with air guns

[223AI]

NE seem to be required by law to ensure that they are satisfied other methods have been tried. If they don't do this, they are acting contrary to the law. Perhaps a petition to change the law is in order if people are unhappy with NE obeying the law...it might be a more positive step than some petitions out there which are asking for Packham to be sacked from the BBC (ignoring the fact that he isn't legally employed by them, but effectively a self-employed contractor).

All BBC reporters are, so the bbc can distance themselves at any given point if needs be, hopefully the petition will cause them to do just that and he will then only have social media to grind his axe on, being on the BBC gives him credibility to the less well educated out there.

[223AI]

NE seem to be required by law to ensure that they are satisfied other methods have been tried. If they don't do this, they are acting contrary to the law. Perhaps a petition to change the law is in order if people are unhappy with NE obeying the law...it might be a more positive step than some petitions out there which are asking for Packham to be sacked from the BBC (ignoring the fact that he isn't legally employed by them, but effectively a self-employed contractor).

Not that they have been tried just that they are not feasible

[eyebull]

NE seem to be required by law to ensure that they are satisfied other methods have been tried. If they don't do this, they are acting contrary to the law.

This now sounds even more incredibly unworkable and logistically impossible. NE don't have the budget, the manpower, or frankly the knowledge to make this practical.

[short-carabine]

From a friend

Interesting and detailed response from Richard Benyon MP:

This issue came about as the result of a legal challenge and as such there is no flexibility other than to suspend the GL. It (the GL) stems from the days of MAFF when there was apparently a requirement to do a regular assessment of the need for a GL. Defra handed the duty over to NE six years ago and it appears that some crucial paperwork did not find its way there, and it has created a loop hole that has been exploited by anti-shooting campaigners.
NE intend to continue with the GL as soon as possible but crucially most species WILL be able to be legally controlled within a few days.
On Thursday there will be a simple form to fill in available on the NE website from the moment the GL falls, to apply for and quickly receive legal authority to control a number of the 16 species covered by the GL. NE will prioritise pigeons (damage to crops) and next will be corvids. There will be three categories under which people can apply. These will be a) damage to livestock (including game), b) public health and safety and, c) conservation.
This is a temporary fix. A new GL will be issued in time but will require the usual processes including consultation.
She said that the campaigners are very keen to expose law breaking so urged all parties to follow the simple process they are putting in place and to remain within the law.

We are expecting further information to come from Natural England and DEFRA over the next few days and as soon as we have something, I will pass it on to you.



With best wishes



Yours sincerely



Michele De Angeli
PA to The Rt Hon Richard Benyon MP

Interesting...if this is true then the problem is due to an inter-departmental Government cock up 6 years ago, and NE seems to have not been meeting the legal requirement for the GLs.

[short-carabine]

All BBC reporters are, so the bbc can distance themselves at any given point if needs be, hopefully the petition will cause them to do just that and he will then only have social media to grind his axe on, being on the BBC gives him credibility to the less well educated out there.

I think it is actually more to do with tax and NI. There was a time on here when the self-employed were virtual gods Actually, we should punish people who (it seems) take action to reveal that Government Agencies are (seemingly, possibly inadvertently) operating outside UK law

[short-carabine]

This now sounds even more incredibly unworkable and logistically impossible. NE don't have the budget, the manpower, or frankly the knowledge to make this practical.

Indeed. Expect a hasty reversal of the planned £8m cuts for this financial year, and an equally hasty recruitment campaign for staff to actually do what is required