a Recoilles springer

[cringe]

Hi, i have this idea & thought I might " run it past you", Has this been done before? A combination recoil less, spring'er/pneumatic. I imagine a design similar to Webley Mk2, the gun is cocked & then " dry fired" but the compressed air is not released, it would be stored in a reservoir behind the breech [would have no-return inlet valve]. OK? now I imagine the mechanisms of a Sheridan, after loading [which could be done at the cocking stage], trigger releases hammer, strikes exhaust valve, result ; zero recoil? Disadvantages? - might end up a bit heavy? it would need a complicated double release trigger mechanism? Any way's some "food for thought" & feel free to comment. Kind regards Al.

PS. should have been recoil less, should have gone to specsavers!

[Benelli B76]

Can't picture what you mean. The Giss recoilless springers work extremely well already, and SSP pistols and rifles also work well albeit can sometimes be harder to cock when achieving 11 ft.lb.

Baz

[RustyBuzz]

Hi, i have this idea & thought I might " run it past you", Has this been done before? A combination recoil less, spring'er/pneumatic. I imagine a design similar to Webley Mk2, the gun is cocked & then " dry fired" but the compressed air is not released, it would be stored in a reservoir behind the breech [would have no-return inlet valve]. OK? now I imagine the mechanisms of a Sheridan, after loading [which could be done at the cocking stage], trigger releases hammer, strikes exhaust valve, result ; zero recoil? Disadvantages? - might end up a bit heavy? it would need a complicated double release trigger mechanism? Any way's some "food for thought" & feel free to comment. Kind regards Al.

PS. should have been recoil less, should have gone to specsavers!

Yes, I’ve often wondered about that as a system, but it’s a long way round the houses to end up with something no better than a pcp.

[evert]

If I understand you correctly, you want to compress a spring, release it so it comresses air into a sealed volume, which later can be used to propell a pellet?

Sounds like a overcomplicated and inefficient sinlge pump pneumatic to me.

[Phil Russell]

If I understand you correctly, you want to compress a spring, release it so it comresses air into a sealed volume, which later can be used to propell a pellet?

Sounds like a overcomplicated and inefficient sinlge pump pneumatic to me.

Ditto, but it is interesting as it gives you just as you say, a single stroke pneumatic with none, or somewhat less, of the spring recoil.
But does it? My guess is that life is not so simple. Would the spring still be under compression, albeit only a little ... I think I understand you in that the compressed air would pass through a valve into a chamber. The air pressure in the chamber would surely only reach the air pressure in front of the spring. This would need careful balancing to avoid the surge effect of a normal springer at this point and a very good non return air valve .. if I understand correctly. Basically what you are suggesting, I think, is that you are replacing the hand powered pump/piston of a pump up with a spring driven piston. Now if the piston seal was perfect, maybe you could get away with no 'inlet valve' ... the piston head effectively forming a seal for the compressed air. But no, you need an inlet valve or at least some mechanism to prevent the piston being driven back under air pressure.
Interesting but my guess is that you would not get the equivalent power output as you would get from a simple springer.
Getting confused just thinking about it ...
Cheers, Phil

[cringe]

If I understand you correctly, you want to compress a spring, release it so it comresses air into a sealed volume, which later can be used to propell a pellet?

Sounds like a overcomplicated and inefficient sinlge pump pneumatic to me.

Hi. evert, thanks for reply, yes you are correct, energy from spring is stored in "battery" which can be released equals Zero recoil, that is my proposed advantage? as i have noted , it would be complicated. Please can you inform of the single stroke pneumatic rifle to which you refer. kind regards Al.

[cringe]

Ditto, but it is interesting as it gives you just as you say, a single stroke pneumatic with none, or somewhat less, of the spring recoil.
But does it? My guess is that life is not so simple. Would the spring still be under compression, albeit only a little ... I think I understand you in that the compressed air would pass through a valve into a chamber. The air pressure in the chamber would surely only reach the air pressure in front of the spring. This would need careful balancing to avoid the surge effect of a normal springer at this point and a very good non return air valve .. if I understand correctly. Basically what you are suggesting, I think, is that you are replacing the hand powered pump/piston of a pump up with a spring driven piston. Now if the piston seal was perfect, maybe you could get away with no 'inlet valve' ... the piston head effectively forming a seal for the compressed air. But no, you need an inlet valve or at least some mechanism to prevent the piston being driven back under air pressure.
Interesting but my guess is that you would not get the equivalent power output as you would get from a simple springer.
Getting confused just thinking about it ...
Cheers, Phil

Hi, Phil, thank's for reply, yes it has confused me as well! the only advantage that i see is that it would be recoil less, the transfer of energy from one form to another all ways involves some loss of that energy, so i assume a more power full spring would be required to start with? but who knows ? perhaps one might get 2 shots out of 1 charge?

[Phil Russell]

I am still puzzling on this and keep coming up with issues to resolve. Working on the assumption that you can't get more out of the system than you put in then you will not get more power out than that taken to compress the spring in the first place; indeed no doubt somewhat less because of efficiency losses. So a fair proportion of the effort you used to compress the spring is now being stored in compressed air created by the spring expanding and pushing a piston on release of a sear. This air has a finite volume equal to the compression chamber. The question must be asked as to what advantage the spring has given you: could you not connect the piston to whatever cocking mechanism you use, break barrel, u/l or whatever and use that to compress the air into your storage chamber? But then that is what is attempted in all the ssp rifles so far but the mechanics of air compression are somewhat more elaborate. (multipumps work in the same way but use an incremental increase in air pressure by multiple pumps). At this point I have to admit that I cannot remember the relative air pressures and volumes needed to propel a pellet out of a pcp compared with a springer except that a pcp is more of a sudden blast of air while a springer delivers a steady build up of pressure to the point of pellet release at the breech while the air pressure increases somewhat as it forces the pellet down the barrel and out of the muzzle. I am forgetting the rearward push on the spring as peak pressure is reached in this. What is this peak pressure? ... sorry I could look it up but cannot remember. Could you store that air at the same pressure and volume as released from a (regulated?) pcp ... about 80 - 100 bar can be used I believe.
Still interesting ...
Cheers, Phil

[cringe]

I am still puzzling on this and keep coming up with issues to resolve. Working on the assumption that you can't get more out of the system than you put in then you will not get more power out than that taken to compress the spring in the first place; indeed no doubt somewhat less because of efficiency losses. So a fair proportion of the effort you used to compress the spring is now being stored in compressed air created by the spring expanding and pushing a piston on release of a sear. This air has a finite volume equal to the compression chamber. The question must be asked as to what advantage the spring has given you: could you not connect the piston to whatever cocking mechanism you use, break barrel, u/l or whatever and use that to compress the air into your storage chamber? But then that is what is attempted in all the ssp rifles so far but the mechanics of air compression are somewhat more elaborate. (multipumps work in the same way but use an incremental increase in air pressure by multiple pumps). At this point I have to admit that I cannot remember the relative air pressures and volumes needed to propel a pellet out of a pcp compared with a springer except that a pcp is more of a sudden blast of air while a springer delivers a steady build up of pressure to the point of pellet release at the breech while the air pressure increases somewhat as it forces the pellet down the barrel and out of the muzzle. I am forgetting the rearward push on the spring as peak pressure is reached in this. What is this peak pressure? ... sorry I could look it up but cannot remember. Could you store that air at the same pressure and volume as released from a (regulated?) pcp ... about 80 - 100 bar can be used I believe.
Still interesting ...
Cheers, Phil

Hi, Phil, nothing to do with power, & strictly speaking this would not be a recoil less air rifle, my proposition is that the recoil would be taken out before the actual shot. [1]. compress spring [2]. release spring [recoil] which sends compressed air to reservoir [3]. then at any time after, trigger releases air, shoot, no recoil? kind regards Al.

[RustyBuzz]

Hi, Phil, nothing to do with power, & strictly speaking this would not be a recoil less air rifle, my proposition is that the recoil would be taken out before the actual shot. [1]. compress spring [2]. release spring [recoil] which sends compressed air to reservoir [3]. then at any time after, trigger releases air, shoot, no recoil? kind regards Al.

Yes, but why? There are way simpler ways to get to where you want to be.

[cringe]

Yes, but why? There are way simpler ways to get to where you want to be.

Hi, Rusty, please can you explain the simple ways? kind regards Al

[RustyBuzz]

Hi, Rusty, please can you explain the simple ways? kind regards Al

I’m guessing that the desired end effect is a shot without recoil, try either a Diana 75 or a Walther LGR, both do this. What you’re suggesting is making them into one rifle to end up with the same result.

[RustyBuzz]

Hi, Rusty, please can you explain the simple ways? kind regards Al

And by the time you’ve combined the two you would end up with such a ‘heavy springer’ recoil would be negligible anyway

[I. J.]

Boyles law. Wouldn't the varying time between compressing the gas and the time its released, when your on target, not effect the pressure due to temp changes?

[cringe]

I’m guessing that the desired end effect is a shot without recoil, try either a Diana 75 or a Walther LGR, both do this. What you’re suggesting is making them into one rifle to end up with the same result.

Thank's Rusty, next time i win lottery i will be sure to try them , But original "post" was has this idea been tried before?