No.2 (5.6mm) pellets

[andrewM]

Hi Andrew,

What I dont understand is why any prospective manufacturer doesn't get hold some original 5.56mm ELEY Wasp pellets, and just replicate them specifically for the No.2 bore English vintage market.

This would involve analysis of the original lead alloy used, and re-manufacture of replica moulds. ELEY wasps were a short pellet in length, and had thicker than average skirt thickness. Also it is my understanding that the lead alloy had higher that average amounts of antimony, which made it harder.

Most vintage shooters regard 5.56mm Eley Wasps, as close to the ideal pellet for older english barrels, so surely, there is your template ???

Lakey

I wholly agree with you; it is a mystery to me too.

In addition, Webley and BSA (amongst others) were still producing .22 (5.6mm) barrels well into the 80s and beyond.

On another matter, I wonder why the Germans produce pellets with a longer skirt. Perhaps tests have demonstrated greater accuracy for a longer pellet.

[look no hands]

I held extensive correspondence with them in 2019. They bought the Defiant moulds and machinery, which they must have done with a view to production. However, they needed to adjust it/upgrade/repair it and needed an expert from the UK to do this. The correspondence then became bogged down in the translation and I have not revisited it, which I must do at some stage.

I explained to them that with the demise of Eley Wasp and the absence of any competition, they could mop up here quite simply. It sounds like a no-brainer to me. It merely needs the go ahead.

Why would they need to buy the moulds in the first place, surely a pellet company like H&N or even JSB can design a mould pretty easily for a 5.6, considering JSB already offer 3 different head sizes in 5.5, if a small company like Pax can get them made then surely one of the big companies that are making gazillions of pellets everyday can do it easily.

Pete

[Brickhill]

The best pellet for my Mercury S is the 5.6mm Eley wasp. Next best Superdomes. I have tried a lot of 5.5mm .22 and the Merc doesn't like them generally.
The Eley wasp 5.6mm seem to be made of quite hard lead/antimony. They certainly don't look anything special but the Merc loves 'em.
I go through the tin and dispose of any damaged pellets of which there are usually quite a few and this helps with consistent accuracy.

[andrewM]

The best pellet for my Mercury S is the 5.6mm Eley wasp. Next best Superdomes. I have tried a lot of 5.5mm .22 and the Merc doesn't like them generally.
The Eley wasp 5.6mm seem to be made of quite hard lead/antimony. They certainly don't look anything special but the Merc loves 'em.
I go through the tin and dispose of any damaged pellets of which there are usually quite a few and this helps with consistent accuracy.

I wonder whether you mean the new Wasps, which are in a similar tin but have omitted the name 'Eley'. The Eley company sold the Wasp brand to the Chinese some 15-20 years ago (and, I gather, the machinery - which appears to have been jettisoned). The old Eley Wasps never had any damaged pellets unlike the newer version, which is packed with duds. It is now very difficult to obtain the old Eley Wasps. I have two or three tins of them, which I keep purely for reference purposes, as a benchmark by which to compare other pellets in terms of power and groupings. There are a few other members, here, who do likewise.

As Pete says, I don't know why a large pellet manufacturer does not produce to 5.6mm. There must be a big gap in the market and this was the point I made to H&N (hoping to persuade them to produce to 5.6mm), only to discover that they had bought the Defiant 5.6mm and have done nothing with it.

By the way, that is an attractive looking Mercury. What is its approx. year of production and what sort of power and accuracy do you get from it?

[Geezer]

I think it’s pure market economics.

I don’t know how many pellets a big maker like Gamo or H&N sell every year. In the millions?

The big market is for cheap plinker/farmyard pellets. Gamo stuff, BSAs, SMK. Cheaper RWS/H&N.

I guess the next big market is for 10M match wadcutters. Those guys shoot a lot.

Then, maybe, the upmarket precision FT/HFT and serious hunter stuff. JSBs, FTTs, that kind of thing.

The usual estimate is that there are 4 million airguns in the U.K. I have so no evidence that this is anything other than a rough guess, but it’s not necessarily a bad one. I’ll also guess that most owners own on average between one and two airguns. So say 2-3 million owners? Many of whom simply have an older gun in a loft or wardrobe that they never or rarely shoot.

Of those owners, how many own an older British-bore .22”? A minority. How many of them shoot said older .22” much? A minority. How many of them know that they might shoot better with larger-diameter pellets? A minority, a significant number of whom are members on here and read threads like this.

So, if I am H&N, do I start making niche 5.6mm products for a comparatively small number of mostly British enthusiasts who frequent the BBS collector section, or just crank out as many 5.5mm pellets as I can for the vastly larger general international market?

You see the same thing in firearms ammo. Those niche calibres, some very good, that just don’t catch on, so almost no one bothers making the ammo. Why set up to make make .244” Remington, when you can sell hundreds of times more .243” Winchester? Or .222” Rem Mag vs .223”? Or .260” Remington (a very nice round ballistically) or .257” Roberts versus .308” or almost anything else?

[andrewM]

Interesting comments, Geezer. I did not know there were as many as 4m airguns in the UK but I would - based on these figures (or any others) - estimate that a good 50% of them must be the older .22 (5.6mm) calibre. How come? Simply because air rifles have been manufactured to this specification since before WW1 all the way through to the '90s. That means that merely some 20+ years have featured the newer 5.5mm calibre, in addition to earlier German imports from, roughly, the '70s onwards after we joined the then Common Market in 1973. This was when they began to make significant inroads into the UK.

Furthermore, there is hardly any competition for the 5.6mm calibre. The new Wasps are not up to it. The old Marksman pellet does not seem to have any notable following. Meanwhile, in the 5.5mm calibre you can sometimes find over a dozen pellet types from one manufacturer alone and there are many manufacturers producing - albeit also for the international market (not sure what goes on in USA, as they still use imperial measurements).

I take your point that many owners of the older airguns do not use them and do not appreciate the difference in calibre sizes but this is a matter for gunsmiths to understand their customers and advise accordingly.

I suspect a good .22 pellet could easily obtain a small price premium but it would need to demonstrate accuracy in tests and a power advantage over 5.5mm. The latter should be simple enough but the former would require some careful testing by the producer in British made rifles.

[look no hands]

Apart from the initial lay out for 5.6 moulds, I can't see what the problem is, if they don't sell and they sit on the manufacturers shelves then surely they can just melt the lead back down and use it in other pellets and then relabel the tins, not a massive loss to them.

It's not like they are making expensive parts that cost a fortune to replicate with specialist engineering companies, which if they didn't sell then I could understand the waste.

Pete

[Brickhill]

I wonder whether you mean the new Wasps, which are in a similar tin but have omitted the name 'Eley'. The Eley company sold the Wasp brand to the Chinese some 15-20 years ago (and, I gather, the machinery - which appears to have been jettisoned). The old Eley Wasps never had any damaged pellets unlike the newer version, which is packed with duds. It is now very difficult to obtain the old Eley Wasps. I have two or three tins of them, which I keep purely for reference purposes, as a benchmark by which to compare other pellets in terms of power and groupings. There are a few other members, here, who do likewise.

As Pete says, I don't know why a large pellet manufacturer does not produce to 5.6mm. There must be a big gap in the market and this was the point I made to H&N (hoping to persuade them to produce to 5.6mm), only to discover that they had bought the Defiant 5.6mm and have done nothing with it.

By the way, that is an attractive looking Mercury. What is its approx. year of production and what sort of power and accuracy do you get from it?

I've always referred to these pellets as Eley Wasps but of course they are not. See picture below. My apologies. They are rough but are the best i can find for this particular gun. I think the original Eley wasps are like rocking horse pooh so i suppose i will have to make do with what i've got. Like your goodself I wish a quality manufacturer would pick up the gauntlet and make some high quality 5.6mm No.2
I bought the gun at the right price. I've had the internals done and the stock refinished. It shoots well and groups these pellets at 2p size at 20 yards. Over the chrono it's doing 11.4 ft lbs. I don't know the year in which it was made, sorry.

Here's the Merc S as i bought it



These are the pellets i was referring too.

[trajectory]

Interesting to read this about Eley Wasps..I was thinking about these a while back & brought it up along with Pylarm pellets sold by BSA & received some informative replies to a thread back then, mid 2018 (?) I think. Great same that such a good product should not be available today....

[WILBA]

I've always referred to these pellets as Eley Wasps but of course they are not. See picture below. My apologies. They are rough but are the best i can find for this particular gun. I think the original Eley wasps are like rocking horse pooh so i suppose i will have to make do with what i've got. Like your goodself I wish a quality manufacturer would pick up the gauntlet and make some high quality 5.6mm No.2
I bought the gun at the right price. I've had the internals done and the stock refinished. It shoots well and groups these pellets at 2p size at 20 yards. Over the chrono it's doing 11.4 ft lbs. I don't know the year in which it was made, sorry.

Here's the Merc S as i bought it



These are the pellets i was referring too.

I still have 4 tins of those wasps. Bought them for my hw80 back in 1990. It was a tad hot so needed a pellet that would not fragment before leaving the barrel

[andrewM]

I've always referred to these pellets as Eley Wasps but of course they are not. See picture below. My apologies. They are rough but are the best i can find for this particular gun. I think the original Eley wasps are like rocking horse pooh so i suppose i will have to make do with what i've got. Like your goodself I wish a quality manufacturer would pick up the gauntlet and make some high quality 5.6mm No.2
I bought the gun at the right price. I've had the internals done and the stock refinished. It shoots well and groups these pellets at 2p size at 20 yards. Over the chrono it's doing 11.4 ft lbs. I don't know the year in which it was made, sorry.

Here's the Merc S as i bought it



These are the pellets i was referring too.

Yes, they are the new Wasps - of notable inferiority in terms of consistency of manufacture. Interesting, however, that you can obtain such groups with them.

What a magnificent restoration you have carried out on that Mercury. It looks quite magnificent compared with the original version above.

[Lakey]

Let us assume that a quality manufacturer did replicate the original designs.
Once these " New Wasp pellets ( to exactly the same pattern as old ELEY wasps) were produced in both 5.56mm and 5.5mm sizes, it could well be that sales of the 5.5mm size would constitute the bulk of sales, and that 5.56mm could be a bit more of a niche market. HOWEVER, shooters would be prepared to pay a premium for a really good pellet for their vintage guns AND, I would say that they would be suitable for a large range of more modern guns.
So said manufacturers could well have a profitable hit on their hands ( all for the cost a producing a new set of moulds to the old original dimensions.)

Maybe a limited run could be done to assess the potential market. Seeing how much original ELEY wasps now make on "The Bay", there is definitely a market for them, and a profit to be made ?

Lakey

[Brickhill]

I still have 4 tins of those wasps. Bought them for my hw80 back in 1990. It was a tad hot so needed a pellet that would not fragment before leaving the barrel

Why would you shoot these shitty pellets though an HW80? I suppose there’s nothing wrong experimenting. My short stroked HW 80 managed two abysmal shots then I called it a day.

[Geezer]

Interesting comments, Geezer. I did not know there were as many as 4m airguns in the UK but I would - based on these figures (or any others) - estimate that a good 50% of them must be the older .22 (5.6mm) calibre. How come? Simply because air rifles have been manufactured to this specification since before WW1 all the way through to the '90s. That means that merely some 20+ years have featured the newer 5.5mm calibre, in addition to earlier German imports from, roughly, the '70s onwards after we joined the then Common Market in 1973. This was when they began to make significant inroads into the UK.

To be clear, I’d love someone to do what you, Lakey and others suggest - just make a new, possibly better, Eley Wasp.

But it won’t be a big manufacturer. It would be a small maker like Pax was, aiming at a very niche market. I just don’t know if the economics would make it a going concern. The pellet market is highly price-competitive (just look at how many threads on here, often from guys with £1000+ rifles wearing £300 scopes ask for the cheapest place to buy pellets).

On how many of the mythical 4 million are 5.6, I’ll argue the toss.

I’d suggest that 70-90% of BSA LJs, Airsporters, Webley Vulcans and all the other classic 9-12 ft-lbs classic sporting springers are .22”.

But the alleged 4 million will include huge numbers of Gats, RO71s, G10s, tinplate break-barrels, all .177”. In classic sporters, significant numbers of HWs, BSFs, FWB124/7s, Diana 35s and 50s - mostly in .22” but 5.5mm variety. Lots of 10M match guns, all .177”. IIRC, bell target is also traditionally shot with .177”. FT guys were all using .177” from around 1982-3. HFT shooters from the outset. .177” as a hunting calibre took off from the early 90s. That’s a long time ago (even if it feels like me like yesterday).

Only a minority of airgun users are hunters. In many models, .22” was not offered. Where there was a choice, the lower cost of .177” pellets, or the rules of a target discipline, either made it a desirable choice, or mandatory.

Finally, I’d note that although Pax are now sold out of 5.6 Defiant, they still had them available as new old stock (perhaps slug-gun can confirm?) for at least a couple of years after they stopped making them.

That back of a fag packet analysis still suggests to me that the number of people who (a) own No2 bore guns, (b) shoot them much, (c) need/want the best level of accuracy from them, (d) know about the 5.6/5.5 thing, (e) don’t get decent performance from Superdomes or whatever is pretty darned small.

[andrewM]

To be clear, I’d love someone to do what you, Lakey and others suggest - just make a new, possibly better, Eley Wasp.

But it won’t be a big manufacturer. It would be a small maker like Pax was, aiming at a very niche market. I just don’t know if the economics would make it a going concern. The pellet market is highly price-competitive (just look at how many threads on here, often from guys with £1000+ rifles wearing £300 scopes ask for the cheapest place to buy pellets).

On how many of the mythical 4 million are 5.6, I’ll argue the toss.

I’d suggest that 70-90% of BSA LJs, Airsporters, Webley Vulcans and all the other classic 9-12 ft-lbs classic sporting springers are .22”.

But the alleged 4 million will include huge numbers of Gats, RO71s, G10s, tinplate break-barrels, all .177”. In classic sporters, significant numbers of HWs, BSFs, FWB124/7s, Diana 35s and 50s - mostly in .22” but 5.5mm variety. Lots of 10M match guns, all .177”. IIRC, bell target is also traditionally shot with .177”. FT guys were all using .177” from around 1982-3. HFT shooters from the outset. .177” as a hunting calibre took off from the early 90s. That’s a long time ago (even if it feels like me like yesterday).

Only a minority of airgun users are hunters. In many models, .22” was not offered. Where there was a choice, the lower cost of .177” pellets, or the rules of a target discipline, either made it a desirable choice, or mandatory.

Finally, I’d note that although Pax are now sold out of 5.6 Defiant, they still had them available as new old stock (perhaps slug-gun can confirm?) for at least a couple of years after they stopped making them.

That back of a fag packet analysis still suggests to me that the number of people who (a) own No2 bore guns, (b) shoot them much, (c) need/want the best level of accuracy from them, (d) know about the 5.6/5.5 thing, (e) don’t get decent performance from Superdomes or whatever is pretty darned small.

Geezer, I cannot fault your rational analysis. The thing is, we just do not know.

I rather think that a large manufacturer would have better success in producing a 5.6mm pellet, simply because they would possess the distribution channels that a small manufacturer might lack.

Perhaps readers, here, would care to email H&N and try to persuade them to commence manufacture with the machinery they bought from Defiant Vintage. In that H&N produce such a wide range of pellets, for every possible use, a pellet for the old 5.6mm would surely have a larger market than many of their existing offerings, which face intense competition. They might have to carry out tests on old .22 UK barrels - perhaps from the '80s - to see if they need to tweak the finer measurements.