5.6 mm pellets

[harvey_s]

So H&N Sniper = the old defiant 5.6? is that correct?

No, they are the old 5.5mm defiant.... The 5.6mm were defiant obsolete (for vintage guns)

[harvey_s]

Wonder no longer! Nothing to do with lack of demand, which was always very healthy indeed. In fact one shooter from Australia bought 120 boxes for his BSA Mk.2 Airsporter! So he obviously liked them. The shipping cost was huge!

The Defiant pellets were made in the basement under the still existing Pax Guns shop, in the Archway Road, Highgate, London. The machines were tended by a wonderful old school engineer, one Cyril Burrows, who continued to work in the basement until he retired aged 90, having been down there since the early 1980's! Unfortunately he died not long after in a care home.

More or less at this point, H&N, one of the most successful pellet manufacturers in the world, discovered that Pax Guns/Prometheus pellets were more accurate than their own, so to cut a long story short, H&N bought the pellet making machines and rights from Pax!

They sent over a low loader, and four engineers, who then proceeded to part dismantle four large machines, that were then carefully extricated from the basement over the course of four days, onto the truck, and shipped back to H&N in Germany.

Pax pellets, though not the whole range, are now still made on the 'old' machines, but in Germany, by H&N staff of course, and packed in H&N branded tins. For example the old 7.5 grain Defiant, is now badged as the H&N 'Sniper'.

H&N were very straight and professional to deal with and deserve success with their venture. However to get back to the point of this thread, they do not currently make the Defiant Vintage, though they could quite easily as they have the dies.

If they perceived a demand however they might be persuaded......?

Hope this now clears up the situation with the 'demise' of the Defiant Vintage and the rest of the Defiant and Prometheus pellets. They are currently wholesaled by John Rothery so a few telephone calls to them may elicit results?

Thank you for that explanation, nice to have the full story.

But if only it could have a happy ending for all the defiant obsolete customers....

Sadly, my own request to H&N to consider making a batch on the old moulds (which I already understood they had acquired) met a rude blanking.

If you have any contacts at H&N though - an enquiry on behalf of the BBS vintage shooters would be appreciated

[WebleyWombler]

That pellet making machine I mentioned in post 8 has reappeared on that famous Eclectic internet auction site. Item number 254518134834

Whilst I personally would not get closer to that seller than the length of the M1, the machine is interesting , does anyone know anything about it?

[andrewM]

I have just visited the forum after an absence of several months and noticed this interesting thread.

I have had extensive discussions with H&N about producing original .22 pellets (ie 5.6mm). The correspondence is repeated below - I have cut out the earlier emails for the purpose of brevity.

H&N were most helpful but the correspondence ran out of steam last Dec - probably a misunderstanding in translation - and I have not followed it up since.

If I understand correctly, the UK designer of the UK machine that manufactured these pellets had to visit H&N to repair the machine and recalibrate it. It seems the machine is currently being used for 5.5mm pellets, now with H&N names. It seems there was a backlog of orders and - from earlier correspondence - H&N would then consider production in .22 (5.6mm).

Given they produce a vast range, I suspect that original .22 pellets would receive a rather greater demand than that for some of their existing lines, not least given that there would be no competition in the UK (other than Marksman perhaps). With the H&N distribution channels, it should be possible to obtain extensive coverage throughout the land.

Probably, it was not until well into the '80s that British air rifles and pistols switched to 5.5mm.

If anyone would like to give this matter a push, it would be helpful. It could be that H&N would have to recalibrate the machinery again to produce in 5.6mm although I am not a technician so this is speculation.

Rgds to all,

A





Date: 12/11/2019 (02:48:35 PM UTC)

To: Jörg Siemens
Text (18 KB)
Yes, I understand this but these are all produced to 5.5mm.

When will you produce (Sniper Defiants) in 5.6mm, for the British .22 calibre, of which there must be many hundreds of thousands of examples in the UK (and the old Dominions abroad)? Given you bought the Defiant 5.6mm machinery from the UK, this must surely be quite simple?

It is the 5.6mm calibre (.22) that I am especially interested in buying - as are many others.

Kind rgds
A



Quoting Jörg Siemens <joerg.siemens@hn-sport.de>:
[Hide Quoted Text]
The Sniper pellets are the former Defiant pellets - we just changed the name.
Defiant = Sniper Light
Defiant Hunter = Sniper Medium
Defiant FAC = Sniper Magnum
Defiant Vintage = Sniper Vintage?

Best regards

Jörg

Jörg Siemens
Head of Sales & Marketing
Haendler & Natermann Sport GmbH
T +49 5541 90963 55
F +49 5541 90963 98
joerg.siemens@hn-sport.de

www.hn-sport.de

General Manager: Florian Schwartz

--- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
Empfänger: Jörg Siemens (joerg.siemens@hn-sport.de)
Betreff: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: .22 British Imperial Measurement Pellets
Datum: Mi. 11.12.2019 15:18

Thank you for your prompt reply.

I understand from this that your existing Sniper Light pellets are
made on the same machine as you would use for the Defiant pellets.
But what happened to the machine for the Defiant pellets that you
bought - or did you buy that to produce your Sniper Light pellets?

When can you test the dies for the Defiant pellets? Do you have a
production date?

With kind regards
Andrew.

Quoting Jörg Siemens <joerg.siemens@hn-sport.de>:

> My message was probably not clear: We are making all Sniper
> (ex-Defiant) Pellets in .177. and .22 (all weight variants) on the
> same machine.
> Therefore, we don't have the capacity to test the dies for the
> Defiant / Sniper Vintage.
>
> Best regards
>
> Jörg
>
> Jörg Siemens
>
> Head of Sales & Marketing >
> Haendler & Natermann Sport GmbH >
> Auf dem Dreisch 2 >
> D-34346 Hann.Münden >
> T +49 5541 90963 55 >
> F +49 5541 90963 98
> > joerg.siemens@hn-sport.de
>
> www.hn-sport.de
>
> General Manager: Florian Schwartz
>
> --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
> Empfänger: Jörg Siemens (joerg.siemens@hn-sport.de)
> Betreff: Re: AW: Re: .22 British Imperial Measurement Pellets
> Datum: Mi. 11.12.2019 15:04
>
> Thank you for your response and given the general quality of your
> pellets, I quite understand you are somewhat burdened. Indeed, I have
> just bought another selection of your pellets myself!
>
> I did not entirely understand your reply. I gather that the UK
> technician has repaired the machine. You then say that you have to
> work on the immense backlog of orders; are these orders from the UK
> for the Defiant Vintage pellet (which you mentioned, below, would be
> called the Sniper Vintage)? But surely you cannot work on these until
> you have time to test the 5.6mm dies? Surely, this test can be done
> quite simply? Do you have a date in mind?
>
> I presume there is no confidentiality in the correspondence we have
> held but I am happy to keep it confidential if you wish.
>
> Kind regards and Christmas salutations!
>

> Quoting Jörg Siemens <joerg.siemens@hn-sport.de>:

> > Sorry for my lack of response but we have a lot of projetcs to work
> > on these days.
> > The machine for the Sniper pellet line was defect for quite a time
> > and a technician from the UK (actually the designer of the machine)
> > had to come to repair it.
> > Now, we need to work on the immense backlog of orders.
> > I cannot foresee when we will have time to test the 5.6 mm dies.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Jörg Siemens
> >
> > Head of Sales & Marketing > >
> > Haendler & Natermann Sport GmbH
> > D-34346 Hann.Münden
> > T +49 5541 90963 55 > >
> > F +49 5541 90963 98
> > joerg.siemens@hn-sport.de
> >
> > www.hn-sport.de
> > General Manager: Florian Schwartz
> >
> > --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
> > Empfänger: Jörg Siemens (joerg.siemens@hn-sport.de),
> > holger.wrede@hn-sport.de
> > Betreff: Re: .22 British Imperial Measurement Pellets
> > Datum: Mo. 09.12.2019 16:36
> >
> > I am just wondering if you have considered my email, beneath, of 13th
> > November.
> >
> > I would be interested to know if you intend to commence
> > production in .22.

[look no hands]

I have just visited the forum after an absence of several months and noticed this interesting thread.

I have had extensive discussions with H&N about producing original .22 pellets (ie 5.6mm). The correspondence is repeated below - I have cut out the earlier emails for the purpose of brevity.

H&N were most helpful but the correspondence ran out of steam last Dec - probably a misunderstanding in translation - and I have not followed it up since.

If I understand correctly, the UK designer of the UK machine that manufactured these pellets had to visit H&N to repair the machine and recalibrate it. It seems the machine is currently being used for 5.5mm pellets, now with H&N names. It seems there was a backlog of orders and - from earlier correspondence - H&N would then consider production in .22 (5.6mm).

Given they produce a vast range, I suspect that original .22 pellets would receive a rather greater demand than that for some of their existing lines, not least given that there would be no competition in the UK (other than Marksman perhaps). With the H&N distribution channels, it should be possible to obtain extensive coverage throughout the land.

Probably, it was not until well into the '80s that British air rifles and pistols switched to 5.5mm.

If anyone would like to give this matter a push, it would be helpful. It could be that H&N would have to recalibrate the machinery again to produce in 5.6mm although I am not a technician so this is speculation.

Rgds to all,

A

I know I've mentioned this already but how hard and costly is it for a pellet maker to produce a mould/die for producing lead pellets as I found the Defiants to be pretty poor accuracy in my rifles.

Pete

[harvey_s]

I know I've mentioned this already but how hard and costly is it for a pellet maker to produce a mould/die for producing lead pellets as I found the Defiants to be pretty poor accuracy in my rifles.

Pete

I think they are quite costly to produce...most tools of that nature are.

[flogger]

Just unearthed a full tin of Webley G.P. .22/5.6 mm pellets,black tin with red lettering made by Eley. Now are these pellets the same as the Eley Wasp pellets.
They look similar apart from the fact the wasp pellets have a much denser interior than the Webley. I have not weighed them to see if any difference in weight my scales are not available at the moment. I have sold a few of these Webley tins in the past .177 and the .22 probably to cheap thinking about it. Any ideas.
Roly.

[junglie]

Hopefully a 3d printer that can use lead will come along at an affordable price, then anyone who shoots the old bsa's can just print their own eley wasps, no doubt some horders will still have some originals in good condition as patterns.

[look no hands]

Hopefully a 3d printer that can use lead will come along at an affordable price, then anyone who shoots the old bsa's can just print their own eley wasps, no doubt some horders will still have some originals in good condition as patterns.

I have about half a tin of the original wasps.

Pete

[look no hands]

I think they are quite costly to produce...most tools of that nature are.

Does that go for lead and tin (I think that's what Defients are made of?).

Pete

[slug-gun]

Does that go for lead and tin (I think that's what Defients are made of?).

Pete

All the Defiant range are LEAD, and always have been. Prometheus made a few match .177 pellets in TIN for the US Army which were fantastic but the material was prohibitively expensive. The non-toxic pellets are ZINC.

H&N could make 5.6 Defiants, relatively simple to change over the die, but won't whilst they are at full stretch making the 'standard' sizes it seems.