5.6 mm pellets

[gary_c_ham]

As there are no decent 5.6mm pellets around these days is there not enough demand for one of the big pellet makers to make some in this size? I would have thought they could tool up and make them and still turn a profit. Any thoughts?

[Shed tuner]

Hi, and welcome. There's been lots of thread on this...
consensus is the following work well in the older, 5.6 bore guns:

• Superdomes
• H&N FTT in larger head sizes (e.g. 5.53/5.54)
• Hobby
• Defiant vintage if you can find them

HTH - JB

[Steve Zodiac]

I often wonder why production of the Defiant Vintage ceased. Can only assume it was down to demand. Was the machinery moved on or just done away with ?

[slug-gun]

I often wonder why production of the Defiant Vintage ceased. Can only assume it was down to demand. Was the machinery moved on or just done away with ?

Wonder no longer! Nothing to do with lack of demand, which was always very healthy indeed. In fact one shooter from Australia bought 120 boxes for his BSA Mk.2 Airsporter! So he obviously liked them. The shipping cost was huge!

The Defiant pellets were made in the basement under the still existing Pax Guns shop, in the Archway Road, Highgate, London. The machines were tended by a wonderful old school engineer, one Cyril Burrows, who continued to work in the basement until he retired aged 90, having been down there since the early 1980's! Unfortunately he died not long after in a care home.

More or less at this point, H&N, one of the most successful pellet manufacturers in the world, discovered that Pax Guns/Prometheus pellets were more accurate than their own, so to cut a long story short, H&N bought the pellet making machines and rights from Pax!

They sent over a low loader, and four engineers, who then proceeded to part dismantle four large machines, that were then carefully extricated from the basement over the course of four days, onto the truck, and shipped back to H&N in Germany.

Pax pellets, though not the whole range, are now still made on the 'old' machines, but in Germany, by H&N staff of course, and packed in H&N branded tins. For example the old 7.5 grain Defiant, is now badged as the H&N 'Sniper'.

H&N were very straight and professional to deal with and deserve success with their venture. However to get back to the point of this thread, they do not currently make the Defiant Vintage, though they could quite easily as they have the dies.

If they perceived a demand however they might be persuaded......?

Hope this now clears up the situation with the 'demise' of the Defiant Vintage and the rest of the Defiant and Prometheus pellets. They are currently wholesaled by John Rothery so a few telephone calls to them may elicit results?

[kev.f]

Hi, and welcome. There's been lots of thread on this...
consensus is the following work well in the older, 5.6 bore guns:

• Superdomes
• H&N FTT in larger head sizes (e.g. 5.53/5.54)
• Hobby
• Defiant vintage if you can find them

HTH - JB

I have about 200 5.56 defiant that i bought from Pax a few yrs ago.Are they not made anymore? I thought they were a success.Sorry...just read explanation above.\doh

[gary_c_ham]

So H&N Sniper = the old defiant 5.6? is that correct?

Wonder no longer! Nothing to do with lack of demand, which was always very healthy indeed. In fact one shooter from Australia bought 120 boxes for his BSA Mk.2 Airsporter! So he obviously liked them. The shipping cost was huge!

The Defiant pellets were made in the basement under the still existing Pax Guns shop, in the Archway Road, Highgate, London. The machines were tended by a wonderful old school engineer, one Cyril Burrows, who continued to work in the basement until he retired aged 90, having been down there since the early 1980's! Unfortunately he died not long after in a care home.

More or less at this point, H&N, one of the most successful pellet manufacturers in the world, discovered that Pax Guns/Prometheus pellets were more accurate than their own, so to cut a long story short, H&N bought the pellet making machines and rights from Pax!

They sent over a low loader, and four engineers, who then proceeded to part dismantle four large machines, that were then carefully extricated from the basement over the course of four days, onto the truck, and shipped back to H&N in Germany.

Pax pellets, though not the whole range, are now still made on the 'old' machines, but in Germany, by H&N staff of course, and packed in H&N branded tins. For example the old 7.5 grain Defiant, is now badged as the H&N 'Sniper'.

H&N were very straight and professional to deal with and deserve success with their venture. However to get back to the point of this thread, they do not currently make the Defiant Vintage, though they could quite easily as they have the dies.

If they perceived a demand however they might be persuaded......?

Hope this now clears up the situation with the 'demise' of the Defiant Vintage and the rest of the Defiant and Prometheus pellets. They are currently wholesaled by John Rothery so a few telephone calls to them may elicit results?

[johnj]

If the Defiant range were so good and better than H&Ns own pellets why sell up.

I'm not sure I've heard that may good things about them and definitely remember how s*~t Prometheus pellets were.

If they really were good is this another example of British manufacturer's asset striping their own companies and not bothering to invest in their own products.

Johnj

[WebleyWombler]

Was there not a listing on the bay a few weeks ago for a complete pellet production machine? I seem to remember it being sold by a car breaker in Wigan with a bit of a reputation for selling junk at high prices.

I wonder where that machinery came from and what brand it made. The listing stated it was complete and included dies. He wanted a good few grand for the set up.

[look no hands]

I'm very surprised someone like JSB don't make some 5.56 pellets.

Pete

[Steve Zodiac]

Wonder no longer! Nothing to do with lack of demand, which was always very healthy indeed. In fact one shooter from Australia bought 120 boxes for his BSA Mk.2 Airsporter! So he obviously liked them. The shipping cost was huge!

The Defiant pellets were made in the basement under the still existing Pax Guns shop, in the Archway Road, Highgate, London. The machines were tended by a wonderful old school engineer, one Cyril Burrows, who continued to work in the basement until he retired aged 90, having been down there since the early 1980's! Unfortunately he died not long after in a care home.

More or less at this point, H&N, one of the most successful pellet manufacturers in the world, discovered that Pax Guns/Prometheus pellets were more accurate than their own, so to cut a long story short, H&N bought the pellet making machines and rights from Pax!

They sent over a low loader, and four engineers, who then proceeded to part dismantle four large machines, that were then carefully extricated from the basement over the course of four days, onto the truck, and shipped back to H&N in Germany.

Pax pellets, though not the whole range, are now still made on the 'old' machines, but in Germany, by H&N staff of course, and packed in H&N branded tins. For example the old 7.5 grain Defiant, is now badged as the H&N 'Sniper'.

H&N were very straight and professional to deal with and deserve success with their venture. However to get back to the point of this thread, they do not currently make the Defiant Vintage, though they could quite easily as they have the dies.

If they perceived a demand however they might be persuaded......?

Hope this now clears up the situation with the 'demise' of the Defiant Vintage and the rest of the Defiant and Prometheus pellets. They are currently wholesaled by John Rothery so a few telephone calls to them may elicit results?

Very interesting . Thank you for taking the time to explain.

Shame about the old chap though.

[gary_c_ham]

there certainly is a big hole in the market...

I'm very surprised someone like JSB don't make some 5.56 pellets.

Pete

[gary_c_ham]

superdomes and 5.53 FTT go down the barrel of my Mercuy S 22 about a good 1/8th of an inch, i presume that's normal?

Hi, and welcome. There's been lots of thread on this...
consensus is the following work well in the older, 5.6 bore guns:

• Superdomes
• H&N FTT in larger head sizes (e.g. 5.53/5.54)
• Hobby
• Defiant vintage if you can find them

HTH - JB

[slug-gun]

If the Defiant range were so good and better than H&Ns own pellets why sell up.

I'm not sure I've heard that may good things about them and definitely remember how s*~t Prometheus pellets were.

If they really were good is this another example of British manufacturer's asset striping their own companies and not bothering to invest in their own products.

Johnj

No it's not an example of a British manufacturer asset stripping etc.... The company has been in business since the 70's. The owner is 80, and as already explained the engineer retired at 90.

Are you likely to still be working flat out at 80 or 90 years of age? Will you even still be alive at that age? Does that answer your query? How much further investment does your company need when you've been at it successfully for 37 years or so, having sold millions of pellets all around the world?

The original steel headed Prometheus were indeed not particularly accurate, especially by modern standards, buy by god they did penetrate well and that is what shooters demanded then.

No one ever went into a gunshop then to ask, "What is the most accurate air rifle you sell?", it was always, "What is the most pow'r full airgun you got ?" If the pellet went one inch into a piece of pine they were happy. You satisfy your market!

At one point the BBC news had a feature showing how a Prometheus pellet had shot a hole in a dustbin lid, and decried the pellet saying how disgusting it was that they should be on sale!

From that point on sales boomed and it was hardly necessary to ever advertise it!

[Geezer]

Chris,

Nice to see you posting on here.

The original plastic-bodied Prometheus were really pretty poor, apart from the galvanised dustbin test.

As you suggest, at the time, penetration was prized by some over accuracy. Same could be said for the awful Sussex Sabo, the Titan Black (was that made by Pax?) or the Champion Ballistic.

To other posters:

The market now for oversize .22” pellets is tiny. They aren’t coming back. Even Defiant Vintage were a niche product at a high price. If you are a manufacturer, why divert production to sell to a small number of mostly British vintage enthusiasts, as opposed to churning out nominal 5.5 pellets?

And it doesn’t matter. There are plenty of “5.5” pellets that work fine in “5.6” barrels. Especially given that most “5.6” rifles these days are used sparingly as plinkers, ratters, or nostalgic range guns.

[johnj]

No one ever went into a gunshop then to ask, "What is the most accurate air rifle you sell?", it was always, "What is the most pow'r full airgun you got ?" If the pellet went one inch into a piece of pine they were happy. You satisfy your market!

Yeah remember John darling and Terry Doe and all the other greats swearing by them because no one cared about accuracy back then did they.

So the engineer retired, do all businesses shut down the department's where employees retire?

No I think you would just replace that member of staff.

I don't see how the owners age really matters but thank you for worrying about my health and making it to that age, which I will thank you, and worrying about my finances but there is no need I have been mortgage and dept free since my thirties and work when I wish to.

Next time I make a comment I'll load it with Prometheus pellets so they don't hit any nerves or anything else for that matter!!!!!

All that said I am sorry if I offended with my first post.

Regards,

Johnj.