Licence free, What is an air rifle, What is a pistol?

[angrybear]

Here's a couple with short barrels! (7")..


John

But overall more than 600mm so again the either/or is full filled.

[Snapshot]

But overall more than 600mm so again the either/or is full filled.

But still entirely irrelevant.

[RobF]

But overall more than 600mm so again the either/or is full filled.

Except it’s not either or over it’s either or under the lengths.

[F5(aba)any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon.

If it has a barrel under 300 or is under 600 in length. It doesn’t need to satisfy both. Otherwise it would say that by using the word ‘and’, which it doesn’t.

As snap shot says it is an air weapon so doesn’t matter anyway.

[Cannon Fodder]

Seen this question number one times over the years and the answer always seems to be "no body actually knows", spoke to a copper a couple of weeks ago who's a air rifle shooter himself who didn't even realise air pistols have a lower limit than rifles. The 300mm / 600mm has always seemed the most reasonable to me (despite the rules stating to state air weapons are excluded from that part of the act and stuff like the tx200hc being a pistol under that definition), I've heard some people try to argue that if it starts off as a pistol it's always a pistol and if it starts as a rifle it's always a rifle but that would stuff cp2 owners and mean you could lop the stock and most of the barrel off a rifle and it would still be a rifle or stick some pistol grips and it's still a rifle.

Like the semi auto question that keeps coming up I believe the safest approach is don't take the Mick and if you have any doubts don't do it, it's not worth 5 years for a bit of extra power.

[aj]

This subject had me wondering about minimum length restrictions after watching a UK review of the new Leshiy 2 with a 250mm barrel. The only reference I could find regarding minimum length was section 2.46 of the firearms licensing law document on the gov.uk website, but that only refers to the barrel and overall length/muzzle energy of an air pistol, not an air rifle.

[RobF]

If you really want some fun I once had a gun which was a plastic stock which wrapped around a pistol with a long barrel. FWIW there's a .22 semi that was on the market a few years ago from a major international manufacturer which pulled the same trick.

[angrybear]

But still entirely irrelevant.

Except it’s not either or over it’s either or under the lengths.

[F5(aba)any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon.

If it has a barrel under 300 or is under 600 in length. It doesn’t need to satisfy both. Otherwise it would say that by using the word ‘and’, which it doesn’t.

As snap shot says it is an air weapon so doesn’t matter anyway.

And as I stated in post#14, because there isn't an answer the manufacturers appear to be hedging their bets by making sure that one or the other applies,
It simply avoids a "12fpe rifle" that fails both, suddenly falling foul of the law because some tw*t decides to cut the stock & hold it like a pistol.

It's called "erring on the side of safety",

https://assets.publishing.service.go...l_2016_v20.pdf
Page 13 para 2.46 seems to confirm exactly what I am saying by clearly stating "any air pistol which has a barrel less than 30cm in length or is less than 60cm length overall with a muzzle energy in excess of 6fpe is a prohibited firearm"

Therefore by having one OR the other the pistol/rifle definition becomes moot up to 12fpe.

[RobF]

And as I stated in post#14, because there isn't an answer the manufacturers appear to be hedging their bets by making sure that one or the other applies,
It simply avoids a "12fpe rifle" that fails both, suddenly falling foul of the law because some tw*t decides to cut the stock & hold it like a pistol.

It's called "erring on the side of safety",

https://assets.publishing.service.go...l_2016_v20.pdf
Page 13 para 2.46 seems to confirm exactly what I am saying by clearly stating "any air pistol which has a barrel less than 30cm in length or is less than 60cm length overall with a muzzle energy in excess of 6fpe is a prohibited firearm"

Therefore by having one OR the other the pistol/rifle definition becomes moot up to 12fpe.

Yes the definition is moot up until 12 or 6. That's been a number of people's point all along.

It's moot because the 30/60 doesn't cover low powered air guns. That's why Page 13 para 2.46 makes it clear as guidance that if the gun isn't low powered it does. That's what the document is for, guidance.

In Bighit's link the judge said there is a circular argument which doesn't work because there's no definition of when an air pistol is not an air rifle until it's over the limit and then it is suddenly a pistol despite it not being one before. This issue comes up in a number of areas of the Act, like taking air rifles off ticket because they are no longer air rifles when they are on ticket. It's just the way it works (or doesn't). The reality is that just like other areas it doesn't affect anyone who hasn't already established a good reason for the law to be looking at them beforehand.


There is no definition of what an air pistol is. As I said before it is generally accepted by those concerned enough to look into it that it would fall upon what a reasonable idea of what a pistol was. Sawing the butt off may or may not define it in the same way adding a folding stock would or wouldn't either.

Therefore by having one OR the other the pistol/rifle definition becomes moot up to 12fpe.

No.

Long barrelled revolvers need not only a barrel length of 30cm but also need an overall length of 60cm because they can't rely on just one aspect otherwise they'd be sect 5. That's why they have rods welded to the back. If they just needed one they wouldn't bother with the other. It's still Either/Or. If they have just one they are sect 5.

[Antoni]

... The reality is that just like other areas it doesn't affect anyone who hasn't already established a good reason for the law to be looking at them beforehand....

Not accepting that, AT ALL.

There is no way to predict why the plod might decide to investigate your airguns.

Their reasons could be unconnected with anything you have done, only something someone wrongly said you have done or might have done.

That is why I wanted to know how to be squeaky clean if the plod knocked at my door for no good reason.

From what I've read so far it's clearly unclear and it's good to read educated opinion from RobF and others.

Looks like one has to apply the 'duck test' and be very conservative when applying it.

[RobF]

Not accepting that, AT ALL.

There is no way to predict why the plod might decide to investigate your airguns.

Their reasons could be unconnected with anything you have done, only something someone wrongly said you have done or might have done.

That is why I wanted to know how to be squeaky clean if the plod knocked at my door for no good reason.

From what I've read so far it's clearly unclear and it's good to read educated opinion from RobF and others.

Looks like one has to apply the 'duck test' and be very conservative when applying it.

There might be no way of predicting why you might come to the attention of the police but I don’t think there’s a single case of people being prosecuted with the greyer areas of airgun law without something else bringing them to the attention of the police beforehand. Generally the police have better things to do without feeling the need to knock on doors and get rulers and chronos out, and their need to test your gear will need to be related to their concerns. They need justification for seizure and testing. In other words you already need to be under suspicion of something to be worried.

[airgunnut]

For FAC I was once told, "if it was designed as a rifle no mater what you do (eg shorten the barrel and put a pistol stock on it and lower the power) it will always in the eyes of the law remain a rifle, with a pistol you can lengthen the barrel and put a shoulder stock on it but in the eyes of the law it's still a pistol that's why you canot up the power to more than 6 foot pounds muzzle energy."