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Thread: Licence free, What is an air rifle, What is a pistol?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turnup View Post
    I think my understanding is rather better than yours.

    That's not what it says. To be S5 an air pistol must be both over 6 fpe and fail one or both parts of the 300/600 rule.
    No, because then it would say a barrel under 300 AND is less than 600 overall, it says "either or" so if it passes one of them it's good but still not an air pistol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turnup View Post
    I think my understanding is rather better than yours.

    That's not what it says. To be S5 an air pistol must be both over 6 fpe and fail one or both parts of the 300/600 rule.
    Exactly.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    ... The reality is that just like other areas it doesn't affect anyone who hasn't already established a good reason for the law to be looking at them beforehand....
    Not accepting that, AT ALL.

    There is no way to predict why the plod might decide to investigate your airguns.

    Their reasons could be unconnected with anything you have done, only something someone wrongly said you have done or might have done.

    That is why I wanted to know how to be squeaky clean if the plod knocked at my door for no good reason.

    From what I've read so far it's clearly unclear and it's good to read educated opinion from RobF and others.

    Looks like one has to apply the 'duck test' and be very conservative when applying it.
    P1V1overT1=P2V2overT2

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antoni View Post
    Not accepting that, AT ALL.

    There is no way to predict why the plod might decide to investigate your airguns.

    Their reasons could be unconnected with anything you have done, only something someone wrongly said you have done or might have done.

    That is why I wanted to know how to be squeaky clean if the plod knocked at my door for no good reason.

    From what I've read so far it's clearly unclear and it's good to read educated opinion from RobF and others.

    Looks like one has to apply the 'duck test' and be very conservative when applying it.
    There might be no way of predicting why you might come to the attention of the police but I don’t think there’s a single case of people being prosecuted with the greyer areas of airgun law without something else bringing them to the attention of the police beforehand. Generally the police have better things to do without feeling the need to knock on doors and get rulers and chronos out, and their need to test your gear will need to be related to their concerns. They need justification for seizure and testing. In other words you already need to be under suspicion of something to be worried.

  5. #50
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    For FAC I was once told, "if it was designed as a rifle no mater what you do (eg shorten the barrel and put a pistol stock on it and lower the power) it will always in the eyes of the law remain a rifle, with a pistol you can lengthen the barrel and put a shoulder stock on it but in the eyes of the law it's still a pistol that's why you canot up the power to more than 6 foot pounds muzzle energy."
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by airgunnut View Post
    For FAC ....
    Please, can we leave out laws which relate to powder burners in this airgun forum.

    It seems that's not easy to do.
    P1V1overT1=P2V2overT2

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antoni View Post
    Please, can we leave out laws which relate to powder burners in this airgun forum.

    It seems that's not easy to do.
    The reason I mentioned it is becouse I believe it also apples to sub legal limit, I Beleve the drozd air pistol was subject to this law, the drozd air pistol, is a co2 pistol that can have a shoulder stock and longer barrel fitted to it to make a carbine rifle but it canot go over 6 foot pounds (in the uk only, there are those who modify these guns in other parts of the world, but those in the uk who have modified pistols in to rifles have no idea of the trouble they are getting into.)

    By the way a lot of the powder burner laws also cover air guns because the law classes air guns as fire arms and the police and press class all guns as weapons.
    Last edited by airgunnut; 04-08-2020 at 10:47 PM.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antoni View Post
    Please, can we leave out laws which relate to powder burners in this airgun forum.

    It seems that's not easy to do.
    My FAC Rapid is not a powder burner

  9. #54
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    Almost forgot, powder burners burn chemicals which produce high temperature, high pressure gasses that propell the projectile, so technically all powder burners are air guns.
    "Men occasionally stumble on the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened" Winston Churchill
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turnup View Post
    Been following this discussion with interest. A careful think leads me to here:

    The "Guidance..." wording is reproduced here



    This statement makes no attempt to define air pistol or air rifle. It is simply states that an over power air rifle becomes S1. It further states that an over power air pistol which fails to meet the 30/60 rule (note that this is the criteria for S1) becomes S5. This is because it does not get the sub 6 exemption and it is a "small firearm"

    This raises the intriguing possibility of an over 6ft-lb air pistol which does meet the 30/60 rule is therefore not a small firearm and thus eligible for S1 status!. I further suspect that the awkward wording is an attempt to conceal the possibility of an S1 air pistol.

    Not at all clear to me why anyone would want a S1 air pistol or even if such a thing exists.
    There is no such thing as a s1 air pistol, if an air pistol has its barrel and/or stock lengthened to over 60cm total length (with a barrel over 30cm) its still classed as a pistol by law, you only get into trouble when you pass the 6 foot pound mark then it goes straight to section 5 and you go straight to prison, you do not pass go.
    You have seen the word Guidance, this is the problem, don't worry its not just you, police firearm licencing in different areas are the same, they interpret the laws differently but airgun power limits are set in stone, your air PISTOL regardless of the length of barrel or overall length, if over 6 ft lbs its section 5.
    If you still think there is such thing as a section 1 air pistol or to clarify the definition of pistol, then call the home office and ask them0
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuffolkRifle View Post
    I'm not positive on the ruling, but I do know that all Mk1 Vermys sold by ASI had 300mm barrels fitted, rather than the 'standard' 295mm ones (think that I had the last Mk1 imported & I had to wait for the replacement barrel) as the owner wouldn't allow them to go out with the standard ones.
    That was probably done because if sold as a FAC air rifle in the UK it wouldnt need a barrel swap. I believe it was designed more for high power markets where barrel lengths on air rifles doesnt apply?

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by airgunnut View Post
    For FAC I was once told, "if it was designed as a rifle no mater what you do (eg shorten the barrel and put a pistol stock on it and lower the power) it will always in the eyes of the law remain a rifle, with a pistol you can lengthen the barrel and put a shoulder stock on it but in the eyes of the law it's still a pistol that's why you canot up the power to more than 6 foot pounds muzzle energy."
    I was told directly by someone who was a partner in a UK air file and pistol manufacturer that when they queried the definitition of an air pistol were told that it REMAINS a pistol if that model was designed and left the manufacturer described as a pistol.
    IMO the rules and regulations are left vague to provide work for lawyers. The same person told me that the BSA Ultra originally had a 10.5" barrel but a dealer played the barrack room lawyer bit saying they couldnt sell them even at sub 12. After consulting two lawyers and getting two different answers BSA avoided any issues by increasing the barrel length to 12" Because the overall length f the Ultra with silencer was stated in advertising the silencer was made useless by having to recess it over the barrel to keep inside that lenngth. I had one of the first 10.5" barrel Ultras and the silencer before modification did the job.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwayjames View Post
    I was told directly by someone who was a partner in a UK air file and pistol manufacturer that when they queried the definitition of an air pistol were told that it REMAINS a pistol if that model was designed and left the manufacturer described as a pistol.
    So the Smk CP2 is a pistol sold as a pistol/rifle.

    So its therefore S5 even when it's approaching 800mm long with the factory supplied stock fitted and running around 8.5ft/lds!!(as std supplied by manufacturer)

    You couldn't make this up in a bad film!

    Methinks I need to get a job with Confused.com!

    Cheers.

    Roy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retracted_Yeti View Post
    So the Smk CP2 is a pistol sold as a pistol/rifle.

    So its therefore S5 even when it's approaching 800mm long with the factory supplied stock fitted and running around 8.5ft/lds!!(as std supplied by manufacturer)

    You couldn't make this up in a bad film!

    Methinks I need to get a job with Confused.com!

    Cheers.

    Roy.
    SMK control the power output of the CP2 by barrel length. They describe the barrel length of pistol as 20 cm and the rifle 45cm. Its sold as "Can also convert from a rifle into a pistol." That must be their get out clause If anyone is found with the long barrel fitted which lifts power to a claimed 8.5ft/lbs but being used as a pistol SMK would say the model was now a rifle

    All very confusing but you can bet that SMK checked out the legal side before any expenditure was made

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwayjames View Post
    SMK control the power output of the CP2 by barrel length. They describe the barrel length of pistol as 20 cm and the rifle 45cm. Its sold as "Can also convert from a rifle into a pistol." That must be their get out clause If anyone is found with the long barrel fitted which lifts power to a claimed 8.5ft/lbs but being used as a pistol SMK would say the model was now a rifle

    All very confusing but you can bet that SMK checked out the legal side before any expenditure was made
    Whats the betting that the smk was made for markets other than the uk and they thought "sod it we'll give it a go in the uk"

    Edit, I think I know how they get away with it, the valve is set at one level, the pistol barrel is machined to a length that produces 5.5 ft lbs but it wastes gas hence the silencer the rifle barrel will be able to use that extra gas to get the higher ft lbs
    "Men occasionally stumble on the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened" Winston Churchill
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