Licence free, What is an air rifle, What is a pistol?

[angrybear]

Here's a couple with short barrels! (7")..


John

But overall more than 600mm so again the either/or is full filled.

[Snapshot]

But overall more than 600mm so again the either/or is full filled.

But still entirely irrelevant.

[RobF]

But overall more than 600mm so again the either/or is full filled.

Except it’s not either or over it’s either or under the lengths.

[F5(aba)any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon.

If it has a barrel under 300 or is under 600 in length. It doesn’t need to satisfy both. Otherwise it would say that by using the word ‘and’, which it doesn’t.

As snap shot says it is an air weapon so doesn’t matter anyway.

[Cannon Fodder]

Seen this question number one times over the years and the answer always seems to be "no body actually knows", spoke to a copper a couple of weeks ago who's a air rifle shooter himself who didn't even realise air pistols have a lower limit than rifles. The 300mm / 600mm has always seemed the most reasonable to me (despite the rules stating to state air weapons are excluded from that part of the act and stuff like the tx200hc being a pistol under that definition), I've heard some people try to argue that if it starts off as a pistol it's always a pistol and if it starts as a rifle it's always a rifle but that would stuff cp2 owners and mean you could lop the stock and most of the barrel off a rifle and it would still be a rifle or stick some pistol grips and it's still a rifle.

Like the semi auto question that keeps coming up I believe the safest approach is don't take the Mick and if you have any doubts don't do it, it's not worth 5 years for a bit of extra power.

[aj]

This subject had me wondering about minimum length restrictions after watching a UK review of the new Leshiy 2 with a 250mm barrel. The only reference I could find regarding minimum length was section 2.46 of the firearms licensing law document on the gov.uk website, but that only refers to the barrel and overall length/muzzle energy of an air pistol, not an air rifle.

[RobF]

If you really want some fun I once had a gun which was a plastic stock which wrapped around a pistol with a long barrel. FWIW there's a .22 semi that was on the market a few years ago from a major international manufacturer which pulled the same trick.

[angrybear]

But still entirely irrelevant.

Except it’s not either or over it’s either or under the lengths.

[F5(aba)any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon.

If it has a barrel under 300 or is under 600 in length. It doesn’t need to satisfy both. Otherwise it would say that by using the word ‘and’, which it doesn’t.

As snap shot says it is an air weapon so doesn’t matter anyway.

And as I stated in post#14, because there isn't an answer the manufacturers appear to be hedging their bets by making sure that one or the other applies,
It simply avoids a "12fpe rifle" that fails both, suddenly falling foul of the law because some tw*t decides to cut the stock & hold it like a pistol.

It's called "erring on the side of safety",

https://assets.publishing.service.go...l_2016_v20.pdf
Page 13 para 2.46 seems to confirm exactly what I am saying by clearly stating "any air pistol which has a barrel less than 30cm in length or is less than 60cm length overall with a muzzle energy in excess of 6fpe is a prohibited firearm"

Therefore by having one OR the other the pistol/rifle definition becomes moot up to 12fpe.

[RobF]

And as I stated in post#14, because there isn't an answer the manufacturers appear to be hedging their bets by making sure that one or the other applies,
It simply avoids a "12fpe rifle" that fails both, suddenly falling foul of the law because some tw*t decides to cut the stock & hold it like a pistol.

It's called "erring on the side of safety",

https://assets.publishing.service.go...l_2016_v20.pdf
Page 13 para 2.46 seems to confirm exactly what I am saying by clearly stating "any air pistol which has a barrel less than 30cm in length or is less than 60cm length overall with a muzzle energy in excess of 6fpe is a prohibited firearm"

Therefore by having one OR the other the pistol/rifle definition becomes moot up to 12fpe.

Yes the definition is moot up until 12 or 6. That's been a number of people's point all along.

It's moot because the 30/60 doesn't cover low powered air guns. That's why Page 13 para 2.46 makes it clear as guidance that if the gun isn't low powered it does. That's what the document is for, guidance.

In Bighit's link the judge said there is a circular argument which doesn't work because there's no definition of when an air pistol is not an air rifle until it's over the limit and then it is suddenly a pistol despite it not being one before. This issue comes up in a number of areas of the Act, like taking air rifles off ticket because they are no longer air rifles when they are on ticket. It's just the way it works (or doesn't). The reality is that just like other areas it doesn't affect anyone who hasn't already established a good reason for the law to be looking at them beforehand.


There is no definition of what an air pistol is. As I said before it is generally accepted by those concerned enough to look into it that it would fall upon what a reasonable idea of what a pistol was. Sawing the butt off may or may not define it in the same way adding a folding stock would or wouldn't either.

Therefore by having one OR the other the pistol/rifle definition becomes moot up to 12fpe.

No.

Long barrelled revolvers need not only a barrel length of 30cm but also need an overall length of 60cm because they can't rely on just one aspect otherwise they'd be sect 5. That's why they have rods welded to the back. If they just needed one they wouldn't bother with the other. It's still Either/Or. If they have just one they are sect 5.

[johnbaz]

If it's under 6 FPE you can call it Shirley for all the difference its makes...

'And don't call me Shirley'!!




John

[SuffolkRifle]

I'm not positive on the ruling, but I do know that all Mk1 Vermys sold by ASI had 300mm barrels fitted, rather than the 'standard' 295mm ones (think that I had the last Mk1 imported & I had to wait for the replacement barrel) as the owner wouldn't allow them to go out with the standard ones.

[Turnup]

Been following this discussion with interest. A careful think leads me to here:

The "Guidance..." wording is reproduced here

2.46 The Rules provide that any air weapon is ‘specially dangerous’ if it is capable of
discharging a missile so that the missile has, on being discharged from the muzzle of the
weapon, kinetic energy in excess, in the case of an air pistol, of 6 foot lbs or, in the case
of an air weapon other than an air pistol, 12 foot lbs. An air rifle with a muzzle energy in
excess of 12 foot lbs must be held on a firearm certificate. Any air pistol which either has a
barrel less than 30cm in length or is less than 60cm in length overall, with a muzzle energy
in excess of 6 foot lbs is a prohibited firearm.

This statement makes no attempt to define air pistol or air rifle. It is simply states that an over power air rifle becomes S1. It further states that an over power air pistol which fails to meet the 30/60 rule (note that this is the criteria for S1) becomes S5. This is because it does not get the sub 6 exemption and it is a "small firearm"

This raises the intriguing possibility of an over 6ft-lb air pistol which does meet the 30/60 rule is therefore not a small firearm and thus eligible for S1 status!. I further suspect that the awkward wording is an attempt to conceal the possibility of an S1 air pistol.

Not at all clear to me why anyone would want a S1 air pistol or even if such a thing exists.

[Turnup]

I'm not positive on the ruling, but I do know that all Mk1 Vermys sold by ASI had 300mm barrels fitted, rather than the 'standard' 295mm ones (think that I had the last Mk1 imported & I had to wait for the replacement barrel) as the owner wouldn't allow them to go out with the standard ones.

There is a problem even with 300mm barrel. The legislation defines the barrel length to be measured from the point of ignition.........bit tricky for an airgun. Another strong indication that this criterion was never intended to be applied to air guns.

[angrybear]

Been following this discussion with interest. A careful think leads me to here:

The "Guidance..." wording is reproduced here



This statement makes no attempt to define air pistol or air rifle. It is simply states that an over power air rifle becomes S1. It further states that an over power air pistol which fails to meet the 30/60 rule (note that this is the criteria for S1) becomes S5. This is because it does not get the sub 6 exemption and it is a "small firearm"

This raises the intriguing possibility of an over 6ft-lb air pistol which does meet the 30/60 rule is therefore not a small firearm and thus eligible for S1 status!. I further suspect that the awkward wording is an attempt to conceal the possibility of an S1 air pistol.

Not at all clear to me why anyone would want a S1 air pistol or even if such a thing exists.

It clearly DOES define what an air pistol is it is an "Air Weapon" with a max of 6fpe which does not have either a barrel length of 300mm OR an overall length of 600mm.

That is crystal clear because an "Air Pistol" over 6fpe is section 5 prohibited ,
and the quote you have put up clearly states that if it is over 6fpe but has EITHER a 300mm barrel OR is 600mm overall it is NOT prohibited
Therefore either a 300mm barrel or an overall 600mm makes it NOT an "Air Pistol"

Note the quote does not use the term "Air Rifle" at all, (except in reference to sect 1) it says "Air Pistol" or "Air Weapon other than a pistol" so those are the only two definitions that matter (under legal limit)

How can you not understand what is written in Queens English right in front of your face ???

[RobF]

It clearly DOES define what an air pistol is it is an "Air Weapon" with a max of 6fpe which does not have either a barrel length of 300mm OR an overall length of 600mm.

That is crystal clear because an "Air Pistol" over 6fpe is section 5 prohibited ,
and the quote you have put up clearly states that if it is over 6fpe but has EITHER a 300mm barrel OR is 600mm overall it is NOT prohibited
Therefore either a 300mm barrel or an overall 600mm makes it NOT an "Air Pistol"

Note the quote does not use the term "Air Rifle" at all, it says "Air Pistol" or "Air Weapon other than a pistol" so those are the only two definitions that matter.

How can you not understand what is written in Queens English right in front of your face ???

It doesn't say that.

All elephants are grey, not all grey things are elephants. No where does it define what an air pistol is. It's really that simple.

[Turnup]

It clearly DOES define what an air pistol is it is an "Air Weapon" with a max of 6fpe which does not have either a barrel length of 300mm OR an overall length of 600mm.

That is crystal clear because an "Air Pistol" over 6fpe is section 5 prohibited ,
and the quote you have put up clearly states that if it is over 6fpe but has EITHER a 300mm barrel OR is 600mm overall it is NOT prohibited
Therefore either a 300mm barrel or an overall 600mm makes it NOT an "Air Pistol"

Note the quote does not use the term "Air Rifle" at all, (except in reference to sect 1) it says "Air Pistol" or "Air Weapon other than a pistol" so those are the only two definitions that matter (under legal limit)

How can you not understand what is written in Queens English right in front of your face ???

I think my understanding is rather better than yours.

That's not what it says. To be S5 an air pistol must be both over 6 fpe and fail one or both parts of the 300/600 rule.