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Thread: P1853 musket, real or fake

  1. #1
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    P1853 musket, real or fake

    There is a P53 I am interested in an up coming auction, I have requested more photos from the auctioneer but I cannot be 100% certain that the rifle is real or a fake, I have seen obvious fakes before and this one does not look like them, but it just looks a bit weird to me. Here are some photos, what do you guys think?


    Thank you

    https://imgur.com/a/TTjDSOL

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huttles94 View Post
    There is a P53 I am interested in an up coming auction, I have requested more photos from the auctioneer but I cannot be 100% certain that the rifle is real or a fake, I have seen obvious fakes before and this one does not look like them, but it just looks a bit weird to me. Here are some photos, what do you guys think?


    Thank you

    https://imgur.com/a/TTjDSOL
    Is it a musket or a rifle? You've used both terms. I haven't seen any before where the lock is not totally flush with the woodwork - I have three. It otherwise looks good to me, but where are the examiners marks and military acceptance marks?

    These notes, from Bill Curtis of the Royal Armouries will no doubt help you make up your mind -

    Enfield Pattern 1853 rifles made under contract or made by the British government can be classified as follows:

    Enfield Factory - marked ENFIELD on the locks. Examiners' marks are a crown over E over a number.

    London Contractors - marked TOWER on the locks. Examiners' marks are a crown over a number with no letter.

    Birmingham Contractors - marked TOWER on the locks. Examiners' marks are a crown over B and a number.

    London Armoury Company - marked LACo on the locks. Examiners' marks are a crown over Z and a number.

    Windsor production from Vermont USA are marked WINDSOR on the locks. Examiners' marks are a crown over A and a number.

    Liege (Belgium) production marked on the lock with the usual Crown VR and date but no place name. The date is in italic script and the VR is separated by a little star. Examiners marks are crown over L and a number.

    St. Etienne (France) production is marked the same as the Liege production but the VR is separated by a small cross instead of a star. Examiners' marks are crown over F and a number.
    All must carry the small acceptance mark towards the front of the lock plate which is a crown descending into a broad arrow.

    In addition to these, those rifles sent for refurbishment to the depot at Pimlico in South London will carry further marks of a crown over P and a number.

    Unserviceable arms sold out of the service 'should' have a large S obliterating the barrel proof mark and opposed broad arrows (i.e. point to point) stamped on the barrel and sometimes on the stock.

    None of these remarks apply to commercial Enfields made for export or for the Volunteers or target shooters. However, some commercial Enfields can be found with the examiners' marks on some of the component parts. This does not make government models. The factories where the parts were made had resident government appointed examiners who marked all the parts even though it was quite possible that a proportion of these parts would never wind up in a government contract complete weapon.

    A government rifle will NOT carry the commercial marks of the London or Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof Houses with their usual marks and double 25 bore size marks. However these can sometimes be found IN ADDITION to the defaced original government proofs showing that the rifle has been correctly (and as required by law) submitted for proof prior to civilian sale.

    To be a government rifle ALL the appropriate marks must be present.
    Last edited by tacfoley; 15-08-2020 at 06:07 PM.

  3. #3
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    lock is original to stock as its a good fit.....not sure about barrel though.
    check to see if rifled or smoothbore......dont go by its got a ramp rear sight on instead of a musket sight.
    cannot see any proof stamps on barrel......might be nepalese barrel

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by loiner1965 View Post
    lock is original to stock as its a good fit.....not sure about barrel though.
    check to see if rifled or smoothbore......dont go by its got a ramp rear sight on instead of a musket sight.
    cannot see any proof stamps on barrel......might be nepalese barrel
    A government rifle will NOT carry the commercial marks of the London or Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof Houses with their usual marks and double 25 bore size marks. However these can sometimes be found IN ADDITION to the defaced original government proofs showing that the rifle has been correctly (and as required by law) submitted for proof prior to civilian sale.

  5. #5
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    its a british barrel but highly polished as i can see 2 crowns when enlarged

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by loiner1965 View Post
    its a british barrel but highly polished as i can see 2 crowns when enlarged
    Should be browned - my two Sniders, based on 1862 locks, are.

  7. #7
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    Thanks for the reply's.

    I am not sure if its a musket or rifle.

    The barrel has me wondering. Maybe a Commercial barrel and the rest military?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    A government rifle will NOT carry the commercial marks of the London or Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof Houses with their usual marks and double 25 bore size marks. However these can sometimes be found IN ADDITION to the defaced original government proofs showing that the rifle has been correctly (and as required by law) submitted for proof prior to civilian sale.
    i didnt see any civilian 25 proof marks ?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huttles94 View Post
    Thanks for the reply's.

    I am not sure if its a musket or rifle.

    The barrel has me wondering. Maybe a Commercial barrel and the rest military?
    it as faint 2 crown proof stamps on the left hand side .....barrel as been polished to bare metal so no finish is left and the proof stamps have nearly been erased...its a military barrel and birmingham proofed.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    Should be browned - my two Sniders, based on 1862 locks, are.
    should be brown but its been removed and polished back to bare metal.....you can see faint birmingham proofs stamps which they nearly erased

  11. #11
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    Run away.

  12. #12
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    did you buy or pass?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by loiner1965 View Post
    did you buy or pass?
    I passed on it. Was too uncertain about it so I am going to wait for another one to pop up.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huttles94 View Post
    I passed on it. Was too uncertain about it so I am going to wait for another one to pop up.
    if in doubt its always best to pass....

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