Thunderbolt Junior Air Pistol.

[Abasmajor]

I recently managed to find a suitable cardboard box to hold my Produsit Thunderbolt Junior to which I also affixed a photocopied label. Although I would obviously prefer to have an original box, I would still rather a reproduction box than keeping it in a pistol sleeve. The Thunderbolt Junior is obviously heavily based on the much earlier and smaller German Tell 2 and preceded the larger British Acvoke pistol which is also based on the Tell 2. It's nice to display these old pistols as they might have originally appeared provided there is no attempt to pass the packaging off as original.







Brian

[WebleyWombler]

Lovely pistol. One is on my wish list but they seem to be quite scarce. It does look good in that box, even if it is a reproduction.

[micky2]

Hi Brian, that's a very nice pistol you have there. l have had 4 of these over the years, and all of mine have been in well used condition. but they do make a nice display of the same type of 3 pistols going down in size.

[ccdjg]

Hi Brian, that's a very nice pistol you have there. l have had 4 of these over the years, and all of mine have been in well used condition. but they do make a nice display of the same type of 3 pistols going down in size.

It is a pity that the 'Thunderbolt Senior' (third one down here) never made it into production . Size-wise, it fits nicely into the sequence, although you could argue that it doesn’t belong here as it is not a concentric. On the other hand they do all share the same cocking principle.

[Abasmajor]

Lovely pistol. One is on my wish list but they seem to be quite scarce. It does look good in that box, even if it is a reproduction.

I've seen a few Thunderbolt Juniors in my travels, but have yet to see the export model named the "Big Chief" which I believe are mainly seen in New Zealand.
Here's another picture of mine with it's big and little brothers also housed in reproduction boxes.



Brian

[Abasmajor]

[QUOTE=ccdjg;7945238]It is a pity that the 'Thunderbolt Senior' (third one down here) never made it into production . Size-wise, it fits nicely into the sequence, although you could argue that it doesn’t belong here as it is not a concentric. On the other hand they do all share the same cocking principle.


Hello John,

It makes you wonder how protective patents were when the Thunderbolt Junior and Acvoke were so closely linked to the Tell 2 in everything but physical size.

Brian

[Mobiasstrip]

Not sure if posting a gif works here, but Tell may have borrowed some of cocking mechanism design themselves...


http://imgur.com/zDZPoC1

...from Westley Richards.

[ptdunk]

I like the idea of a ‘full size’ Tell 2 as I think they are a great design.

I’ve seen a couple of Thunderbolt juniors come up in auctions and they always command a high price (last one was £400+)

What sort of power do they put out? I think my little Tell 2 is about half a ftlb

Matt

[Abasmajor]

Not sure if posting a gif works here, but Tell may have borrowed some of cocking mechanism design themselves...


http://imgur.com/zDZPoC1

...from Westley Richards.

Absolutely right, but the almost identical appearance apart from physical size of the Tell 2, Thunderbolt Junior and Acvoke seems a bit cheeky to say the least.

Brian

[Mobiasstrip]

Absolutely right, but the almost identical appearance apart from physical size of the Tell 2, Thunderbolt Junior and Acvoke seems a bit cheeky to say the least.

Brian

Absolutely, very cheeky. Facinating the way the designs intertwine.

[ccdjg]

Not sure if posting a gif works here, but Tell may have borrowed some of cocking mechanism design themselves...


http://imgur.com/zDZPoC1

...from Westley Richards.

Actually the Tell 2 borrowed almost everything from the concentric Highest Possible. namely the grip cocking concept and the concentric barrel concept. Edwin Anson was a bit of a genius IMO!

Foss's contributionto the Tell 2 was the simplified and effective breech closure - also ingenious, and it helped make the design much more commercial.

[Abasmajor]

Actually the Tell 2 borrowed almost everything from the concentric Highest Possible. namely the grip cocking concept and the concentric barrel concept. Edwin Anson was a bit of a genius IMO! ?

Foss's contribution to the Tell 2 was the simplified and effective breech closure - also ingenius, and it helped make the design much more commercial.

Hello John,

Are you aware of any innovative features or functionality that significantly distinguish between the Tell2, Thunderbolt Junior and Acvoke air pistols ?

Brian

[Abasmajor]

Thinking about it a bit more. I guess Walther owed much to Lincoln Jeffries during development of the LP53.
Brian

[ccdjg]

Hello John,

Are you aware of any innovative features or functionality that significantly distinguish between the Tell2, Thunderbolt Junior and Acvoke air pistols ?

Brian

Interesting question Brian.
For a patent to be accepted, it has to define one or more "inventive steps" , and you can't claim anything that been published peviously (published in the broadest sense of the word and not just restricted to patents),anywhere in the world, as an inventive step. So patents like the Thunderbolt and Acvoke, and even the Tell 2 have to be careful to include something that is truly original. They can then pad out the patent with other material, most of which is classed as design and so is not protected by the patent. (The design could of course be protected separately by registration, but this was rarely done by airgun manufacturers. The only example I can think of was Frank Clarke's first version Titan).

So the Acvoke claims its inventive steps as a modified breech closure to "minimise lost volume", and a more efficient spring activated cocking lever unit. The rest of the pistol design was just pinched from the Tell 2. The Tell 2 was not patented in Britain so they were doing anything illegal, but they would not have been able to sell the gun in Germany.

The Thunderbolt claimed even more minor inventive steps, one being its simplified one-piece trigger, which in reality, while being simpler than the Acvoke two-piece trigger, was virtually identical to the one-piece Tell 2 trigger, and an improved lock-up of the folding cocking arm by putting two cams on its profile.

I am sure that the real objective behind these patents was to create a smoke cloud and discourage competitors, rather than to protect any ground breaking discoveries.

[WebleyWombler]

Interesting question Brian.

So the Acvoke claims its inventive steps as a modified breech closure to "minimise lost volume", and a more efficient spring activated cocking lever unit. The rest of the pistol design was just pinched from the Tell 2. The Tell 2 was not patented in Britain so they were doing anything illegal, but they would not have been able to sell the gun in Germany.

Both my Tell II are marked DRGM ( a sort of registered design , much weaker than a full patent) and DRP (a full patent) . My understanding is that this German patent system was abolished by the Allies in 1945 so Accles and Shelvoke would not be contravening any patents, anywhere in the world ?