The "R" word and collectable guns

[ccdjg]

I was thinking about a previous thread and the merits or otherwise of “doing up” tired collectable guns, and it occurred to me what a great language English is for subtlety. I could think of no less than five “R” words that apply to the subject (there may be more):

Reclamation

Resurrection

Regeneration

Renovation

Restoration

I wonder how you would define these terms when they are applied to “improving” a truly collectable gun (as opposed to a gun that is intended for regular use)? And under what circumstance would any of these different approaches be justifiable?

I will start the ball rolling by saying that “reclamation” and “resurrection” are probably much the same thing and would apply to a total wreck that was destined for the skip (or may even already be in it). In which case, IMO, anything you did to it to get it working would be justifiable. I think the other terms need more thinking about though.

[I. J.]

Relum.

Rubbish.



Im not known for my subtlety.

[old goat]

Perhaps the most important word Rust!

[Binners]

Relum.

Rubbish.



Im not known for my subtlety.

Really

[WebleyWombler]

More important to some sellers than any word on that list

'Remuneration'

[WILBA]

Relum.

Rubbish.



Im not known for my subtlety.

I think thats bullcrap. We all know you are a secret relum lover and collector ian just come out of the closit and admit to it.

[flogger]

I was thinking about a previous thread and the merits or otherwise of “doing up” tired collectable guns, and it occurred to me what a great language English is for subtlety. I could think of no less than five “R” words that apply to the subject (there may be more):

Reclamation

Resurrection

Regeneration

Renovation

Restoration

I wonder how you would define these terms when they are applied to “improving” a truly collectable gun (as opposed to a gun that is intended for regular use)? And under what circumstance would any of these different approaches be justifiable?

I will start the ball rolling by saying that “reclamation” and “resurrection” are probably much the same thing and would apply to a total wreck that was destined for the skip (or may even already be in it). In which case, IMO, anything you did to it to get it working would be justifiable. I think the other terms need more thinking about though.

You forgot about refinish.

[Binners]

[Jerry Cornelius]

This post neatly illustrates why I have mixed feelings about restored guns, or buying them anyway

I tend to assume they must have been very close to death to start with. They can be made to look nice again, but will they ever really be the same?

[Binners]

This post neatly illustrates why I have mixed feelings about restored guns, or buying them anyway

I tend to assume they must have been very close to death to start with. They can be made to look nice again, but will they ever really be the same?

No, thank god

[ccdjg]

“Refinishing” is a good one that I had forgotten.

As far as “renovation” and “restoration” are concerned, I always feel that renovation ( = rejuvenation?) should be a much less invasive process than restoration, probably involving nothing more than a general clean-up, removal of surface rust, replacing seals, lubricating etc. Nothing that ought to offend the purist.
Restoration, on the other hand, is a more thorny question. Most collectors on here are very vocal about their dislike of refinished vintage guns. Is that only when the new finish is obviously wrong, or would even a refinish that perfectly matched the factory original still be frowned upon?

It strikes me that there are two types of collectors. The first are represented by collectors of vintage cars or old-master paintings. In both cases, restoration is perfectly acceptable, and in fact is deemed desirable when needed. Then you have collectors of porcelain and china, where any form of restoration is regarded as a no-no, and can have a disastrous effect on value. Do the majority of us airgun collectors really fall into the second camp? Are we snobs rather than realists?

[micky2]

Wow l wouldn't have thought there would be any metal left after getting all that rust off.

See you in the spring fingers crossed.

[Garvin]

There may well be snobbery there in the mix but from my POV there is a very good reason for preferring original over refinished and that's to do with originality and an unbroken link back to the factory. As soon as the original finish is gone, however lovely it looks, the clock is reset by the restorer and that link is broken.

We don't know what tricks were used to arrive at this new finish.

A car is different in the sense that if it doesn't at minimum take you safely from A to B, it's pointless. There's no such equivalent in the world of cars to a 'wallhanger', that I know of. Cars wear out over time, a well-made airgun, carefully looked after and serviced, doesn't.

[ccdjg]

There may well be snobbery there in the mix but from my POV there is a very good reason for preferring original over refinished and that's to do with originality and an unbroken link back to the factory. As soon as the original finish is gone, however lovely it looks, the clock is reset by the restorer and that link is broken.

We don't know what tricks were used to arrive at this new finish.

A car is different in the sense that if it doesn't at minimum take you safely from A to B, it's pointless. There's no such equivalent in the world of cars to a 'wallhanger', that I know of. Cars wear out over time, a well-made airgun, carefully looked after and serviced, doesn't.

Good points, well made. However, life is never that simple, and there is one complication: when is "original" not really original?

For example, would a Webley Senior pistol that has lost all its blue be considered true to the original, as it was never meant to be supplied by the manufacturer to the general public in that state ? Is an antique gun that was known to have been nickelled originally and has lost all its plating and developed a nice rust patina all over still original? You could argue that it in that state it is a misrepresentation of the truth, could mislead future generations of collectors, and so replating would be a good thing.

[Dutch]

There may well be snobbery there in the mix but from my POV there is a very good reason for preferring original over refinished and that's to do with originality and an unbroken link back to the factory. As soon as the original finish is gone, however lovely it looks, the clock is reset by the restorer and that link is broken.

We don't know what tricks were used to arrive at this new finish.

A car is different in the sense that if it doesn't at minimum take you safely from A to B, it's pointless. There's no such equivalent in the world of cars to a 'wallhanger', that I know of. Cars wear out over time, a well-made airgun, carefully looked after and serviced, doesn't.

Very well put concerning the 'unbroken link to the factory'. In the end the pursuit for originality is just one of a complex set of attributes (quality, value, status, smell, feeling, emotional bond, etc.) that load towards a feeling of content or satisfaction. It commands that a particular rifle is the last you will ever sell and another that you have completely forgotten about (given a proper functioning memory ). The origins for the weight one assigns to each attribute is buried deep inside your psyche. For example I very much like proper blued metal and would never buy nickel plated guns. The origins for that lay in the moments that I was allowed as a kid to polish my grandfather's collection of deep blued vintage pistols, with all the pleasant emotions connected to it.

Disagree on 'a car not being a wall hanger'. Watching 'Chasing classic cars' on discovery channel made me realise that there are numerous car collectors out there, that have valuable cars as 'wall hangers' in storage. Similarities with airgun collecting are eminent, but the investment/value aspect is much more prominent. As a matter of fact VGC with unrestored original parts, inscriptions, numbers, paint is a very big thing in vintage car collecting.

The anomaly here is that restoring to factory specs provides similar values (as it seems, can't really judge the actual value gab here). Can't figure out at the moment why airgun collectors truly dislike restored to factory specs airguns (including myself). Is it because they can't, really? Slightly wrong finish, too much polishing of lettering vanishing etchings and wrong stain on the wood? Or is it because the restored object screams I'm not an original to us connoisseurs. Confusing but truly interesting stuff!