The "R" word and collectable guns

[ccdjg]

The difference is that it is virtually impossible to buy a classic car in 'mint' condition, whereas the majority of models of old airguns can be found in a condition (albeit at a cost) where most of the original finish remains.
Also an old gun with time worn patina can be attractive - an old car with time worn rust is not, plus it will only deteriate further.

What you say is true, but I still think there is an element of snobbery in there somewhere. For some collectors, just knowing that a gun has been refinished is enough to make it undesirable in their eyes, even if the refinishing is visually perfect and can only be detected by forensic examination. This is exactly the attitude of Dinky car and porcelain collectors, but not how collectors of vintage cars and paintings feel.

I sometimes think that the aversion to quality, sympathetic refinishing is Freudian. Maybe it is a subconscious dislike of another collector having previously dabbled with the object of their desires. Bit like they might feel about the woman in their life. This would explain why a factory-refinished gun is deemed OK, as it is a more impersonal intervention. Bit like letting your wife see a gynaecologist.

[dvd]

I used to buy 1960's and 70's target airguns with the specific intention to rejuvenate them which according to me means rebluing and removing dings from the woodwork along with any mechanical repairs.
They look very close to how they were when new, perform well and with the level of care that I lavish on them, they will probably look much better some years into the future, than some examples that have sacrificed their looks and perhaps function in favour of originality.
It's all about what I want from my airguns . No offence to anyone, patina and all that does not float my boat. I still have all the airguns that I bought and I do not consider myself a collector in the sense as a preserver of originality, but I enjoy recalling the challenges I was presented with during the rejuvenation process of every one.

[slug-gun]

What you say is true, but I still think there is an element of snobbery in there somewhere. For some collectors, just knowing that a gun has been refinished is enough to make it undesirable in their eyes, even if the refinishing is visually perfect and can only be detected by forensic examination. This is exactly the attitude of Dinky car and porcelain collectors, but not how collectors of vintage cars and paintings feel.

I sometimes think that the aversion to quality, sympathetic refinishing is Freudian. Maybe it is a subconscious dislike of another collector having previously dabbled with the object of their desires. Bit like they might feel about the woman in their life. This would explain why a factory-refinished gun is deemed OK, as it is a more impersonal intervention. Bit like letting your wife see a gynaecologist.

I don't think it has anything to do with snobbery, it is more about what floats your boat in terms of appreciating the appearance and feel of an air rifle/pistol, or indeed any collectable.

I have yet to see a refinished gun that compares to a mint one - the crispness and sharp detail of an original item is almost unmistakeable. The way it was originally polished at the factory, and that thin layer of grime and dried oil that has accumulated over years cannot be replicated. The dust that has gathered in the corner of the box, the whole thing as dry as a bone but still rust free, not having seen any oil for fifty or more years.

That can never be equalled by any restored item, no matter how skilled the restoration. And that is what I personally strive for, but that is me. Others would be equally happy with something well reblued but at a quarter of the price. It is horses for courses, and of course about how much money you want or can put into the hobby. Nothing at all to do with snobbery.

Dinky/Porcelain collectors will undoubtedly have a similar view. It is also about the challenge of the search. and the satisfaction derived from achieving a goal. Of course there are many rare items which can never be found in mint condition simply because they no longer exist in such. With items like that compromises obviously have to be made.

[Hsing-ee]

Buying a battered old springer with the intention of restoring it then realising it’s just an obsolete springer of which thousands were made, replacing the spring and whatever else it needs to achieve functionality and leaving it at that.

[johnbaz]

Could also say these old guns are being 'Revitalised' too


John 👍

[SRV1]

Mmmm...It doesn't matter if rusty, restored, part restored, original, tuned, semi tuned, hex-head instead of the original screw.....they are all temporary possessions anyway, we will have no idea what will happen to them in the future, and no good worrying about it, or getting academic about the situation. No good being on the death bed thinking, should I restore, keep original and wishing what could, or should I have done with them - too late.....Just bloody use them, do what you want with them, and enjoy while the going is good......

All the best to all

[ccdjg]

Mmmm...It doesn't matter if rusty, restored, part restored, original, tuned, semi tuned, hex-head instead of the original screw.....they are all temporary possessions anyway, we will have no idea what will happen to them in the future, and no good worrying about it, or getting academic about the situation. No good being on the death bed thinking, should I restore, keep original and wishing what could, or should I have done with them - too late.....Just bloody use them, do what you want with them, and enjoy while the going is good......

Very true, but I did say in my original post: " I wonder how you would define these terms when they are applied to “improving” a truly collectable gun (as opposed to a gun that is intended for regular use?"

For a true collectable, its condition does matter, both before and after we are pushing up the daisies. Collectability involves any, or all, of academic, historic, mechanical, and aesthetic interest for the collector. If you only own guns for their usefulness, then you are seeing things through the eyes of a user and not a collector. Nothing wrong with that,of coiurse, as long as you aren't the sort of user who saws off the end of the barrel a Highest Possible pistol so that it fits into the pocket better, like some have done in the past.

[WILBA]

Relum.

Rubbish.



Im not known for my subtlety.

I think thats bullcrap. We all know you are a secret relum lover and collector ian just come out of the closit and admit to it.

[SRV1]

Very true, but I did say in my original post: " I wonder how you would define these terms when they are applied to “improving” a truly collectable gun (as opposed to a gun that is intended for regular use?"

For a true collectable, its condition does matter, both before and after we are pushing up the daisies. Collectability involves any, or all, of academic, historic, mechanical, and aesthetic interest for the collector. If you only own guns for their usefulness, then you are seeing things through the eyes of a user and not a collector. Nothing wrong with that,of coiurse, as long as you aren't the sort of user who saws off the end of the barrel a Highest Possible pistol so that it fits into the pocket better, like some have done in the past.

It is all down to to the complexity of each individual's character to do, or not do, being comfortable and happy with ones temporary possessions. Doesn't matter to anyone else if they butcher, keep as mint and boxed, polish until there is no bluing left, use a HW35 as a fence post as long as they have paid for it and happy having fun with it. I have a tidy HW35 by the way, but no, it is not a fence post yet, but who knows?

All the best.....

[ccdjg]

Originally Posted by SRV1

It is all down to to the complexity of each individual's character to do, or not do, being comfortable and happy with ones temporary possessions. Doesn't matter to anyone else if they butcher, keep as mint and boxed, polish until there is no bluing left, use a HW35 as a fence post as long as they have paid for it and happy having fun with it. I have a tidy HW35 by the way, but no, it is not a fence post yet, but who knows?



Mmmm. Kind of makes me think of ISIS and their attitude to ancient monuments.

[micky2]

Wow l wouldn't have thought there would be any metal left after getting all that rust off.

See you in the spring fingers crossed.

[Garvin]

There may well be snobbery there in the mix but from my POV there is a very good reason for preferring original over refinished and that's to do with originality and an unbroken link back to the factory. As soon as the original finish is gone, however lovely it looks, the clock is reset by the restorer and that link is broken.

We don't know what tricks were used to arrive at this new finish.

A car is different in the sense that if it doesn't at minimum take you safely from A to B, it's pointless. There's no such equivalent in the world of cars to a 'wallhanger', that I know of. Cars wear out over time, a well-made airgun, carefully looked after and serviced, doesn't.

[ccdjg]

There may well be snobbery there in the mix but from my POV there is a very good reason for preferring original over refinished and that's to do with originality and an unbroken link back to the factory. As soon as the original finish is gone, however lovely it looks, the clock is reset by the restorer and that link is broken.

We don't know what tricks were used to arrive at this new finish.

A car is different in the sense that if it doesn't at minimum take you safely from A to B, it's pointless. There's no such equivalent in the world of cars to a 'wallhanger', that I know of. Cars wear out over time, a well-made airgun, carefully looked after and serviced, doesn't.

Good points, well made. However, life is never that simple, and there is one complication: when is "original" not really original?

For example, would a Webley Senior pistol that has lost all its blue be considered true to the original, as it was never meant to be supplied by the manufacturer to the general public in that state ? Is an antique gun that was known to have been nickelled originally and has lost all its plating and developed a nice rust patina all over still original? You could argue that it in that state it is a misrepresentation of the truth, could mislead future generations of collectors, and so replating would be a good thing.

[Dutch]

There may well be snobbery there in the mix but from my POV there is a very good reason for preferring original over refinished and that's to do with originality and an unbroken link back to the factory. As soon as the original finish is gone, however lovely it looks, the clock is reset by the restorer and that link is broken.

We don't know what tricks were used to arrive at this new finish.

A car is different in the sense that if it doesn't at minimum take you safely from A to B, it's pointless. There's no such equivalent in the world of cars to a 'wallhanger', that I know of. Cars wear out over time, a well-made airgun, carefully looked after and serviced, doesn't.

Very well put concerning the 'unbroken link to the factory'. In the end the pursuit for originality is just one of a complex set of attributes (quality, value, status, smell, feeling, emotional bond, etc.) that load towards a feeling of content or satisfaction. It commands that a particular rifle is the last you will ever sell and another that you have completely forgotten about (given a proper functioning memory ). The origins for the weight one assigns to each attribute is buried deep inside your psyche. For example I very much like proper blued metal and would never buy nickel plated guns. The origins for that lay in the moments that I was allowed as a kid to polish my grandfather's collection of deep blued vintage pistols, with all the pleasant emotions connected to it.

Disagree on 'a car not being a wall hanger'. Watching 'Chasing classic cars' on discovery channel made me realise that there are numerous car collectors out there, that have valuable cars as 'wall hangers' in storage. Similarities with airgun collecting are eminent, but the investment/value aspect is much more prominent. As a matter of fact VGC with unrestored original parts, inscriptions, numbers, paint is a very big thing in vintage car collecting.

The anomaly here is that restoring to factory specs provides similar values (as it seems, can't really judge the actual value gab here). Can't figure out at the moment why airgun collectors truly dislike restored to factory specs airguns (including myself). Is it because they can't, really? Slightly wrong finish, too much polishing of lettering vanishing etchings and wrong stain on the wood? Or is it because the restored object screams I'm not an original to us connoisseurs. Confusing but truly interesting stuff!

[Garvin]

Good points, well made. However, life is never that simple, and there is one complication: when is "original" not really original?

For example, would a Webley Senior pistol that has lost all its blue be considered true to the original, as it was never meant to be supplied by the manufacturer to the general public in that state ? Is an antique gun that was known to have been nickelled originally and has lost all its plating and developed a nice rust patina all over still original? You could argue that it in that state it is a misrepresentation of the truth, could mislead future generations of collectors, and so replating would be a good thing.

John to that I would say yes, it is original insofar as it hasn't been tampered with, albeit neglected.

Personally, like Chris, I want to collect airguns as close to the genuine factory condition - though aged - as possible, given my limited means. But I'm not interested in refinished guns for the reasons given above.