Original/Diana - some questions and a query over Diana's future

[andrewM]

Reading through the correspondence regarding the Jubilee Original 45 has prompted three questions:

1 Does anyone have dates for the introduction of the various triggers, ie TO1-6?

2 What is the general view of the 34? Was this the best break barrel Diana produced?

3 An air rifle dealer informed me a month or so ago that Diana had ceased production of a number of its models, the 48 being one from memory and perhaps the 34 too, and I think he said, was transferring more production to China. Are they in financial difficulty?

Rgds
A

[jonnyone]

Reading through the correspondence regarding the Jubilee Original 45 has prompted three questions:

1 Does anyone have dates for the introduction of the various triggers, ie TO1-6?

2 What is the general view of the 34? Was this the best break barrel Diana produced?

3 An air rifle dealer informed me a month or so ago that Diana had ceased production of a number of its models, the 48 being one from memory and perhaps the 34 too, and I think he said, was transferring more production to China. Are they in financial difficulty?

Rgds
A

Afternoon Andrew. Some quick answers as I shoot through on my lunch break.

Can't answer your first question regarding triggers as I get confused in this aspect as well. The answers here take some delving into reference books etc and there are much better versed people here than myself so I'll let someone jump in later on that.

The 34. Well I'll give you may small take on this. I cannot be sure of exact release date but I think from memory the 24/34/36 were released by Diana (just possibly very early ones were stamped Original) as the replacements for other older models within the range. Looking at the 34 in particular I think it was meant to be the BSA meteor of the Diana range in as much as it was a gun for the common man. A mass produced gun- though clearly a few notches up the quality power and accuracy stakes than the meteor. From memory early guns were very plain with no recoil pad or checkering. I think it's gone on to be a best seller for Diana and over that time I think (or it seems to me at least) that it has undergone a number of facelifts commensurate with its value within the range. I guess you could liken it to a modern Original 35 - another mass seller for Diana. It's still going well within the range and has a number of variants within it. It forms the basis of other models such as the 36 and 38 and nowadays is used as the basis of commemorative models such as the Diana 35 commemorative model celebrating the sale duration and numbers sold of that model by Diana. I can't recall the numbers I've got (under 5 I think) and they are a solid performer. I was particularly intrigued by the model improved upon by Sandwell field sports a short time ago.

In regards to the current Diana range there does seem to be some changes happening. A number of what I would have thought would be popular models have been dropped. I cannot recall the exact ones but the 52 is one that comes to mind. Also the Target Hunter range of guns that whilst eye wateringly expensive are excellent handling guns. Seems to me that Diana are consolidating their range to focus on those that sell well. I think they may have been a victim of their own extensive range of guns before now. Keeping them all going must have been quite a task with perhaps good sales of one model subsidising the poor sales of another. I can't think of any manufacturer that had such an extensive range of models at any one time.
Whether they have picked the right models to continue with remains to be seen. I think their Ntec gas ram range is very good. I'm not a huge fan of the new EMS model springer but I'm trying to keep an open mind. As for China- I sincerely hope not is all I can say (but I'll add that it seems that some low in the range starter and youth guns may be made there).

Cheers
Dave

[Geezer]

As I commented on one of the earlier threads, T0 numbers do not formally denote triggers, but rather significant changes - similar to our use of words like Mark, series, or variant. Which is why some Diana models are marked T01 but do not have the so-called T01 trigger.

For the 34 (36, 38, post-1988 45) and 48 (52, 54) models, the T0 number has become shorthand for trigger type. I believe Diana ended up using it themselves.

1. (a) The original 34 (March 1984) had a simple trigger. The improved T01 of about 1986 had a number of changes. Longer cylinder and a reversion to a raised scope rail rather than grooves, and a new trigger. This “T01 trigger” was an updated version of Diana’s classic ball-sear trigger, adapted for more modern production and fitted with a safety catch (which by then was seen as essential for sale in the US market).

1. (b) The so-called T05 was brought out in around 2000. The T06 in 2011-12.

2. (a) The 34 is an excellent rifle. It has survived in the market for 35+ years. When introduced it was very much in the same bracket for power and price as the BSA Mercury, Webley Vulcan, or HW35, albeit plainly styled. Once upgraded in 1986 it could (where legal) exceed all of those in power by a couple of ft-lbs, and had a very good trigger (better than the British rifles), while still good value (esp compared to the FWB Sport or the HW80 in 12 ft-lbs trim, or the HW85/95 which it preceded). It was hugely successful in the US: seen over there as a great value choice in a quality air rifle for the more discerning air gun user. They sold well in the U.K. until an idiot importer decided to hike Diana prices above their HW equivalents.

2. (b) Best? Well, the 1978-vintage 45 has its fans (I’m one). The 35 (which the 34 replaced in the line) is a very competent gun, and the ones made in the 50s and early 60s before cost-cutting set in can be very nice indeed. The 34 makes the same power as the 45 in a lighter, cheaper, package. It makes more power than the 35 while otherwise broadly similar in handling. While the 34’s stock was always quite basic, they made plenty of variants with better ones (the 34S, 36, 38, and post-1988 “45”) with nicer finish, rubber buttpads, more defined cheek pieces, etc. And also versions with black “tactical” stocks and non-reflective metal finish, and/or carbine barrels and factory-fitted muscle weights or (in the U.K.) silencers. So yes, maybe, depends.

3. They have shut their old factory (2016). Many models are no more. Though there is a new 34 variant that’s quite interesting. A lessening number of rifles are still made in Germany, but of parts principally made in Bulgaria. The majority of their range, more each year, are Chinese. It is reasonable to surmise that they were in difficulties, and are trying a new business model. Whether it will work, or whether it will be in keeping with their heritage, only time will time. I am sceptical.

[andrewM]

Thank you, both, for your detailed replies, which have cleared up some of the questions and confusion I had. To the consumer, it is baffling when confronted with so many different models.

Dave, you mentioned the EMS, of which I had not heard and I quickly googled it to find this interesting video clip from a trade show in USA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYrkIOdD2wk Alas, we do not know where this is made.

Presumably, Geezer, the 36 and 38 were simply deluxe versions of the 34, with no difference to the internals.

Since owning an Original 45 from new, I have a soft spot for Original/Diana. I bought, a year or two ago, an early Diana 280 from this site. It is light, accurate, well made and the trigger is good. It operates best with Superdomes.

It would be detrimental to the German airgun industry if Diana packed up or sub-contracted to China. Weirhauch would probably raise its prices without a German competitor to keep it focused. It would be interesting to know what models Diana is now manufacturing in China and whether any of the range is still built in Germany.

Is there any means by which one can tell the type of trigger? Is it marked or is this something only an expert can determine?

Rgds
A

[HW777]

The EMS, of which I had not heard and I quickly googled it to find this interesting video clip from a trade show in USA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYrkIOdD2wk Alas, we do not know where this is made.

I went looking for 34 EMS after seeing your post, no info on the Diana web site and only found 1 EMS for sale, which could point towards poor QC and them not being made in Germany.

[RobinC]

A quick google search of Mayer and Gramelspacher (Diana trade name owners) takes you to Wikipedia, they list the current owners as "German Sport Guns"

A google of German Sport Guns, Diana, list the current range and shows what are available.

My wife shot Internationally in the 70's as a member of the GB team, with an Original 75, which was an English Market Diana 75, she still has it.

A German girl won an Olympic medal with a Diana air rifle.

Sad how a great company has fallen, now just making plinking guns presumably in China.

Have Fun
Robin

[andrewM]

I have, in response to the above posts, just checked the Diana website. It does not inspire.
https://www.german-sport-guns.com/sh...pring-Operated

A cross next to the model presumably means it has been discontinued. The 280, which was promoted with some fanfare some years ago, has disappeared entirely.

We do not know, of those that are being made, what are made in China and what are made in Germany.

An email to Diana would doubtless clear up these questions but it is sad, as you say Robin.

If Weirhauch is now the only player in Germany, then we have reached a tragic situation, and the more so given that Diana/Original were of the same high quality.

[Geezer]

36 and 38 are simply better stocks on a 34 action. No internal changes. Ditto the entry-level 31 of about ten years ago with, typically, a black stock. Which I thought was a better bet in carbine form than the 280, both selling for around the same price.

“T01” trigger is stamped metal with two adjustment screws in the front.

“TO5”: plastic trigger blade, only one adjustment screw.

“T06”: metal blade, two screws in the front of the blade, second one deeply countersunk, one behind it.

[Drew451]

I have, in response to the above posts, just checked the Diana website. It does not inspire.
https://www.german-sport-guns.com/sh...pring-Operated

A cross next to the model presumably means it has been discontinued. The 280, which was promoted with some fanfare some years ago, has disappeared entirely.

We do not know, of those that are being made, what are made in China and what are made in Germany.

An email to Diana would doubtless clear up these questions but it is sad, as you say Robin.

If Weirhauch is now the only player in Germany, then we have reached a tragic situation, and the more so given that Diana/Original were of the same high quality.

The 280 is still being made as per Diana's website. I believe the GSG site you have provided the link for is sone kind of retail outlet belonging to the group and and "x" means out of stock.


The Diana website shows a much reduced range but that many models are still made or at least assembled in Germany. You are also abe to download their catalogue from the site where the Model 30 ball firing repeater is shown. This model appears to have been rereleased after many years snd differs from the Oktoberfest model. So hopefully they're not on the slide totally.

p.s. some excellent input on the thread, men.

[HW777]

I have, in response to the above posts, just checked the Diana website. It does not inspire.
https://www.german-sport-guns.com/sh...pring-Operated

A cross next to the model presumably means it has been discontinued. The 280, which was promoted with some fanfare some years ago, has disappeared entirely.

We do not know, of those that are being made, what are made in China and what are made in Germany.

An email to Diana would doubtless clear up these questions but it is sad, as you say Robin.

If Weirhauch is now the only player in Germany, then we have reached a tragic situation, and the more so given that Diana/Original were of the same high quality.

You may have missed the info on the Diana web site that states a few models are still being made in Germany, I think the question really lies with, where are the parts now being made to make up these guns ? In the you tube EMS 34 vid did you notice that the Diana rep didn't really go out of his way to sell the concept of the rifle.

When it now comes to spring guns, look at the list of current makers, is the Hw98 laminate Weihrauch's last hoorah for springers and are they slowly cheapening their barrels and stamping on their springers. AA make just two models TX & PS, BSA are now Gamo, Webley are Hatsan plus they do make their own models, FWB sport Mk4 again a last hoorah. Cometa who knows where they are at and just about everything else is made in, 5 letters sounds like miner.

[Geezer]

This is the Diana site. It still lists the 280, 34, 48, 54, and 460. But nothing like the variety of models, variants and so on offered in the (recent) past.

Numbers expressed as numbers (34 etc) appear to be German-made. Numbers as words (two-forty) appears to indicate manufacture in the communist Chinese dictatorship.

https://www.diana-airguns.de/produkte

[HW777]

Is the Diana EMS 34 really a SMK208 but made up to Diana's spec hence the TO6 trigger ?

[andrewM]

Thanks for the valuable feedback - all very interesting and comforting to know that Diana's demise seems to have been exaggerated. Despite the movement into China, it seems that Germany is still producing the best amongst their models, according to their website (assuming Geezer is correct - ie model numbers given in words for the Chinese manufactures).

Geezer, I have also noted your comments on the triggers in my air rifle file - always useful to have this type of thing by way of future reference.

HW55T: a worrying thought. Perhaps it is the last hoorah for HW springers, with pcps gradually taking over. Yes, I noticed the Diana rep at the trade fair did not make a compelling case and caused more questions to be asked than he answered. As for the FWB Sport Mk4, I don't think it is available in 5.5mm or in the UK either. I would be interested in buying a new version but it seems FWB are not interested, given competition from HW.

I would continue to argue that Diana is an underrated brand but the marketing is poor (as is some of the presentation - ie plastic sights) and in the UK at least, they need a pro-active agent.

Rgds
A

[Geezer]

FWB Mk4 is discontinued. Yesterday’s over-priced, unpopular, funny-looking rifle; tomorrow’s collector’s item.

I am not at all optimistic of Diana’s future as anything other than a supplier of Chinese guns.

[andrewM]

FWB Mk4 is discontinued. Yesterday’s over-priced, unpopular, funny-looking rifle; tomorrow’s collector’s item.

I am not at all optimistic of Diana’s future as anything other than a supplier of Chinese guns.

Well, I hope you are wrong about Diana.

As for the FWB4, it seems they gave up without trying.