Double PCP Regulators?

[Tricky-Ricky]

Interesting that manufactures are now starting to fit two regs and I can see the point if fill pressures are now 300 rather than 200 bar, i have owned an AR20ft which used two reg before i owned a chrono or two so never got to play with it and cant remember what the fill pressure was.

I have noticed that a lot of the new FX have very smal piston regs and wonder if this might be another reason why they dont cope so well as i have seen plenty of posts about changeing the design and materials used and i also suspect its down to the sub 12ftlb market as reg presures seem to also get lower as air use eficiantcy improves, i also wonder if the smaler design is to improve the recovery rate.

[xbow]

I’ve not got a compressor but my shop serves emergency services so if it was essential I could get a fill.

But my cylinders have all been 300 bar because it’s far more economical instead of 232. I still only put 200 in because that’s all my gun cylinders are rated to.

Yes, I bought a 300 bar diving cylinder. Getting a 232 for shooting didn’t make much sense.

[RobF]

Interesting that manufactures are now starting to fit two regs and I can see the point if fill pressures are now 300 rather than 200 bar, i have owned an AR20ft which used two reg before i owned a chrono or two so never got to play with it and cant remember what the fill pressure was.

I have noticed that a lot of the new FX have very smal piston regs and wonder if this might be another reason why they dont cope so well as i have seen plenty of posts about changeing the design and materials used and i also suspect its down to the sub 12ftlb market as reg presures seem to also get lower as air use eficiantcy improves, i also wonder if the smaler design is to improve the recovery rate.

I haven't seen the FX regs but the internals of a lot of regs are fairly small. The amount of movement in a reg is tiny, probably sub 1mm.

[Tricky-Ricky]

I haven't seen the FX regs but the internals of a lot of regs are fairly small. The amount of movement in a reg is tiny, probably sub 1mm.

What i mean is because the pistons are so small they dont seem to like larges changes in pressure when linked to lage plenums the sealing matirial gets hammerd and leads to inconsistancys which is why i hypothsiesed about the manufactures reason for useing two regs in tandem.
I removed the huma reg i fitted to my R10 for this reason.

[RobF]

What i mean is because the pistons are so small they dont seem to like larges changes in pressure when linked to lage plenums the sealing matirial gets hammerd and leads to inconsistancys which is why i hypothsiesed about the manufactures reason for useing two regs in tandem.
I removed the huma reg i fitted to my R10 for this reason.

Pressure is pressure, it doesn't vary with size, ie if your pressure on a small part is 300 bar then on a big part it's still 300 bar.

What does change is the force, because pressure = force over an area, so if your area increases your force drops. Like the same reason a light lady might sink in stilettos standing on grass, but a much heavier chap might not... because despite the force being more with the chap, the area is much larger meaning the light lady exerts more pressure and sinks.

Pressure is what makes something seal, force is what a reg uses to balance. The force is adjusted to provide the pressure setting.

But here's a question for you, if the wind is blowing your door open, if you put less force on it does it shut better or worse than putting more force on it?

Remember I said that design is important, and so are the materials used. In some regs the materials used aren't ideal but are simple to manufacture.

It's important to realise that different products have different goals. It might be an incorrect assumption to suggest that twin regs are better (ie in performance), they just might be cheaper and within acceptable limits. Products aren't always made to be the best trump card, best in all different categories including cost, sometimes they're made for a market. If FX's potential customer base think that twin regs are better then that's job done if it hits their sales targets, doesn't matter if they actually are or not.

[Tricky-Ricky]

That's exactly my point small regs using even smaller sealing areas = more force which results in damage to sealing surface.

[xbow]

Products aren't always made to be the best trump card, best in all different categories including cost, sometimes they're made for a market. If FX's potential customer base think that twin regs are better then that's job done if it hits their sales targets, doesn't matter if they actually are or not.

This is true. German car manufacturers spout all kinds of BS about how good their cars are but when you look at something as basic as reliability statistics they are crap compared to Japanese and Korean cars.

[RobF]

This is true. German car manufacturers spout all kinds of BS about how good their cars are but when you look at something as basic as reliability statistics they are crap compared to Japanese and Korean cars.

Yeh there's a lot of BS in those surveys though. They're paid for by warranty companies and they don't want to attract unreliable customers. It makes financial sense for them to skew. Merc uses Nissan engines... BMW & Mini use Peugeot etc... Jaguar again... the list goes on and that's just engines.

[xbow]

Yeh there's a lot of BS in those surveys though. They're paid for by warranty companies and they don't want to attract unreliable customers. It makes financial sense for them to skew. Merc uses Nissan engines... BMW & Mini use Peugeot etc... Jaguar again... the list goes on and that's just engines.

They’re not surveys, they’re reports and based on actual repair bills. The Germans themselves also compile reliability stats and they tell a similar story.

I think you’re getting confused with the JD power surveys where they simply ask owners what they think of their car. I guess if you’ve paid a premium for a car you’re not so likely to complain about it?

Click on the “worst 10”. Five of them are German.

https://www.reliabilityindex.com/

If I was still a car mechanic I’d work for a German marque and tell everyone how great they are. Everyone’s got to make a living and you can make plenty fixing expensive cars.

[RobF]

They’re not surveys, they’re reports and based on actual repair bills. The Germans themselves also compile reliability stats and they tell a similar story.

I think you’re getting confused with the JD power surveys where they simply ask owners what they think of their car. I guess if you’ve paid a premium for a car you’re not so likely to complain about it?

Click on the “worst 10”. Five of them are German.

https://www.reliabilityindex.com/

If I was still a car mechanic I’d work for a German marque and tell everyone how great they are. Everyone’s got to make a living and you can make plenty fixing expensive cars.

They're surveys of their customers. Ie they only have that data, they're not stats of every single fault a car has. So if you don't buy a Warranty Direct product they have no clue. This isn't some independent collection of data, it's the data that Warranty Direct want to present.

Now call me cynical but I'm betting the owners of a car with a 7 year warranty aren't tempted to by a 3rd party warranty, and I'm willing to bet those with a low value car aren't either. So that skews the data because you're not comparing like for like. It also states that it takes into the cost of repair which means something like Maserati (bottom) only needs one claim and it blows it's average for cost and incident rate. Similarly a brand with cheap parts (Daihatsu) is top... how many Daihatsu's will make up one Masa repair bill? I'm thinking 100?

If you look at all of these reports they are made by companies selling warranties. WD set up several and it's essentially a paid misinformation sales tool.

Probably the best indicator of reliability is to look at the age of cars and which are still going. Or ask an independent mechanic. Or look for the cars which devalue like a stone.

The 'surveys' or whatever Warranty Indirect (because they no longer sell direct, they seem to be having money issues now one of their underwrites has gone tits) are just a sales tool aimed at a certain price point in the market which skewed figures. Exactly like twin regs. Sales tool.

[derekm]

Spot on Rob. Too many people fail to read between the lines.