trouble in store?

[eyebull]

I've had some minor successes over the years when confronted with people who say "No one should have a gun!/Guns are evil!" etc., by simply asking, "Why?", and letting them attempt to lay out a cohesive argument, which they are usually unable to do; their opinions generally being received rather than a position that they have come to through applying their own logic and knowledge.
Pointing out that shooting (in several forms) is an olympic sport, that it is no more militaristic than archery, and also telling people how many legally held guns are really out there - off the top of my head about a quarter of a million shotguns and at least a million air rifles - and how infrequently, both proportionately and absolutely, they are involved in any kind of misdeed has led to quite a few people changing their minds IME, at least reaching a kind of indifference rather than hostility.

As for 'military looking' guns, most of the public can't tell their arse from their elbow or a BSA Lightning from an SA80 so this kind of appeasement and self-cannibalisation is deeply unproductive IMO. Shooters of all stripes need to stick together, end of.

[Garvin]

I've had some minor successes over the years when confronted with people who say "No one should have a gun!/Guns are evil!" etc., by simply asking, "Why?", and letting them attempt to lay out a cohesive argument, which they are usually unable to do; their opinions generally being received rather than a position that they have come to through applying their own logic and knowledge.
Pointing out that shooting (in several forms) is an olympic sport, that it is no more militaristic than archery, and also telling people how many legally held guns are really out there - off the top of my head about a quarter of a million shotguns and at least a million air rifles - and how infrequently, both proportionately and absolutely, they are involved in any kind of misdeed has led to quite a few people changing their minds IME, at least reaching a kind of indifference rather than hostility.

As for 'military looking' guns, most of the public can't tell their arse from their elbow or a BSA Lightning from an SA80 so this kind of appeasement and self-cannibalisation is deeply unproductive IMO. Shooters of all stripes need to stick together, end of.

Slight contradiction here! You use the argument that shooting is an Olympic sport, no more militaristic than archery, yet some pistols are modelled on firearms designed specifically to kill people, even if they can actually barely puncture a tin can at 20 yards.

You and I are relaxed about this, because we know they are harmless and great fun, but people who see all guns as the same are inclined to lump all guns together. Unfortunately there are a lot more of them than us smart folk!

I think our argument would be stronger if it was clear we were talking about ie. a break barrel springer or vintage pop-out, than all airguns together, including mock-up firearms.

In a perfect world people would understand these subtleties. But as I said above, proponents of firearm-like airguns have more to gain by sticking close to us than vice versa. I don't think for a second we should cut them loose any time soon, but when push comes to shove I think it might be wise to fall back on the 'Olympic sport more like archery' argument.

[eyebull]

Bows and javelins are also modelled on military weapons, and I'd venture that far more people have been killed by them over the course of history than firearms!

Honestly, a ban on 'military looking' guns is absolutely the thin end of a thick wedge, and though you may be thinking in terms of airsofters and neds with umarex replicas, this would also cover everything from Schimels to Daisys. And it will not stop there.

[Jerry Cornelius]

Slight contradiction here! You use the argument that shooting is an Olympic sport, no more militaristic than archery, yet some pistols are modelled on firearms designed specifically to kill people, even if they can actually barely puncture a tin can at 20 yards.

You and I are relaxed about this, because we know they are harmless and great fun, but people who see all guns as the same are inclined to lump all guns together. Unfortunately there are a lot more of them than us smart folk!

I think our argument would be stronger if it was clear we were talking about ie. a break barrel springer or vintage pop-out, than all airguns together, including mock-up firearms.

In a perfect world people would understand these subtleties. But as I said above, proponents of firearm-like airguns have more to gain by sticking close to us than vice versa. I don't think for a second we should cut them loose any time soon, but when push comes to shove I think it might be wise to fall back on the 'Olympic sport more like archery' argument.

People who want to ban guns will always be trying to ban guns. The longer they are forced to argue about airsoft or whatever the longer it will be until they can say, right, we’ve banned airsoft, now let’s try to ban the next thing.

Because they will never, ever say that’s enough bans , no more, there is no point whatsoever agreeing to or not fighting any ban. No compromise is possible with these people

[harry mac]

Yes, but when they do, it'll be easier to argue they are barking up the wrong tree.

Except, there will be fewer of us to argue.

[eyebull]

People who want to ban guns will always be trying to ban guns. The longer they are forced to argue about airsoft or whatever the longer it will be until they can say, right, we’ve banned airsoft, now let’s try to ban the next thing.

Because they will never, ever say that’s enough bans , no more, there is no point whatsoever agreeing to or not fighting any ban. No compromise is possible with these people

The hard core of hoplophobes are quite small in number, a far smaller contingent than gun anoraks even.
Where they score is in their willingness to weaponise public opinion and draw the otherwise indifferent to their cause in a way that the shooting community continually fails to do.
In this way they also have youth on their side.

A more proactive approach is needed, it's no use trying to lay low and just hope that the legislative eye never turns to your particular corner of interest.

[edbear2]

I think you just got a lot of people with extremely similar views in one spot and they were no more typical than any other kind of echo-chamber. Also I bet if you said you'd shot for the UK in the Olympic Squad they would have changed their tune. Were they perhaps 'original hippy' types thinking you had been in the Nam and had gone gun crazy from all the war you done like some kind of Worcestershire version of the fellow in 'Taxi Driver'?

Mostly retired local authority / Education / Public service types, car park full of near new cars, always seem to be just back from some holiday somewhere nice, so yes a certain demographic. I think I am the only one in the whole group who has had manual employment from what I heard / could glean prior to that night.

A couple are ex Uni then did all the festivals / went to India etc. Hippy types in the past who do /did alternative stuff as an income.

I don't think the Oylimpic argument would hold up, there was muttering about "War Toys" and the like too on the night, and even total dismissal when I mentioned farmers and the like needing guns etc.

As for echo chambers, well that's what we are here, it is honestly quite an eye opener to see opinions of other folk.

Maybe members on here should mention the subject somehow in a work / social setting of non shooters and report back to see if my experence was unusual or more normal than we may realise.

ATB, Ed

[Hsing-ee]

Mostly retired local authority / Education / Public service types, car park full of near new cars, always seem to be just back from some holiday somewhere nice, so yes a certain demographic. I think I am the only one in the whole group who has had manual employment from what I heard / could glean prior to that night.

A couple are ex Uni then did all the festivals / went to India etc. Hippy types in the past who do /did alternative stuff as an income.

I don't think the Oylimpic argument would hold up, there was muttering about "War Toys" and the like too on the night, and even total dismissal when I mentioned farmers and the like needing guns etc.

As for echo chambers, well that's what we are here, it is honestly quite an eye opener to see opinions of other folk.

Maybe members on here should mention the subject somehow in a work / social setting of non shooters and report back to see if my experence was unusual or more normal than we may realise.

ATB, Ed

A couple of the young women (20s, university educated) at work expressed an interest in trying target shooting when I mentioned it, and a ex-colleague (30s) in the university expressed an interest in trying clay pigeon shooting, and he is a musician. However a lot of school teachers I know just say 'ban them' but then they would ban everything and have people sitting at home at their desks all day if they had their way.

A global ban on the military having weapons is what the people you describe actually seem to want, rather than a ban on sporting arms. But I don't think that is 'feasible'!

[laverdabru]

Years ago, pre Dunblane, I worked as a Civil Servant. Many workmates used to do full bore pistol/rifle shooting, reloading etc.
When I worked for Royal Mail there were quite a few posties who shot both airguns & shotties, trained gundogs & so on.
More recently, I've worked in retail. & found mentioning I have a 'few' old airguns leads to some odd questions, chiefly about the legality of our hobby. People seem to know very little about them compared to when I was growing up. Even a girl who trains horses & rides with the local Hunt was amazed I had airguns, & that I disliked grey squirrels - 'Oh, but they're so cute'.
Whereas, all my neighbours know I shoot, & with one exception (a local councillor...) have no problem with it.

ATB

Bru

[walnutfarmmick]

A couple of the young women (20s, university educated) at work expressed an interest in trying target shooting when I mentioned it, and a ex-colleague (30s) in the university expressed an interest in trying clay pigeon shooting, and he is a musician. However a lot of school teachers I know just say 'ban them' but then they would ban everything and have people sitting at home at their desks all day if they had their way.

A global ban on the military having weapons is what the people you describe actually seem to want, rather than a ban on sporting arms. But I don't think that is 'feasible'!

A farmer friend of mine was a topnotch clay shooter. He got his then girlfriend interested but she quickly overtook him and they went to more meets. Unfortunately he was paying for everything so I think it was a bit of a relief when they split up. He learnt by the experience and when his next girlfriend showed an interest he provided a very light gun with a very heavy load. 45 years and 4 kids later they are still married but she's still yet to take her second shot.

Be careful what you wish for, Mick