trouble in store?

[Mark D]

I'm in the mid 60s age group and was an active member of a full bore pistol club from the age of 20 that shot at events around the country and in France plus the trip to Pistol AD at Bisley. Bisley was always rammed with people from all over the planet over those 4 days and the stalls did heaps of business.

Post 97 I couldn't bring myself to shoot was was on offer and took up with my airguns. My old club set up an airgun section, but it was set up outside which meant it was redundant for 6 months of the year. HFT and IPAS grabbed my attention and it was pleasing to see how many youngsters and females joined the sport, even if it meant being beaten by someone half your age!!

I am hopeful that competitive shooting in all forms will continue across the generations and into the future, what it really needs though is an umbrella organisation that will represent all shooters whatever their chosen discipline, that though is going to be it's toughest hurdle.

[Josie & John]

That attitude has a tendency to backfire. They are not coming for YOUR guns- TODAY- as someone else is at the front of "evil".
But when the military replicas are gone, the "antis" are coming for the next item....

I agree. This is what I was alluding to in my initial response to this thread.

Our enemies will attack each element in turn until there is nothing left. Just look at what we have lost since 1987: Self loading rifles, pistols, Brocock air pistols, mail order airguns.....It's the death of 1000 cuts, one by one.

Our enemies will ban gun shaped toys if that is all that is left at the end of the day, whether they resemble military or sporting arms is a moot point.

Better to fight restrictions at every corner by contacting your local MP or ministers direct. Ironically one of the most detailed responses I ever received was a letter from Charles Kennedy. Other ministers sent a templated acknowledgement but old Charles sent a 4 page reply, so at least he listened to every point I raised.

I was also one of a deputation of around 6 that contacted our local MP just after Dunblane at a time when he did not know which way to vote. Again, he listened and took our side. He also contacted me some years later asking for advice on which air rifle to buy for a spot of pest control!

My point is contacting these people can work and is not pointless. They are human and react to sensible argument. Just don't swear, however much you may want to and keep your cool.

John.

John

[Garvin]

I agree. This is what I was alluding to in my initial response to this thread.

Our enemies will attack each element in turn until there is nothing left. Just look at what we have lost since 1987: Self loading rifles, pistols, Brocock air pistols, mail order airguns.....It's the death of 1000 cuts, one by one.

Our enemies will ban gun shaped toys if that is all that is left at the end of the day, whether they resemble military or sporting arms is a moot point.

Better to fight restrictions at every corner by contacting your local MP or ministers direct. Ironically one of the most detailed responses I ever received was a letter from Charles Kennedy. Other ministers sent a templated acknowledgement but old Charles sent a 4 page reply, so at least he listened to every point I raised.

I was also one of a deputation of around 6 that contacted our local MP just after Dunblane at a time when he did not know which way to vote. Again, he listened and took our side. He also contacted me some years later asking for advice on which air rifle to buy for a spot of pest control!

My point is contacting these people can work and is not pointless. They are human and react to sensible argument. Just don't swear, however much you may want to and keep your cool.

John.

John

I'm sure there are plenty of antis who would ban anything gun-shaped. But that's not necessarily true of all politicians, who have calibrated bans so far according to the 'proportionality test', which is why there are still no licenses for sub-12 ft/lbs airguns in England and Wales, despite various attempts to push for this by GCN, RSPCA etc. Being out of the EU actually makes the ratchet march of anti-gun legislation less likely IMO.

But firearm-style CO2 guns are an anomaly that were illegal for decades and only legalised as a sop post-Dunblane. If the government hadn't done this (mainly to replace a lost revenue stream for the gun trade) they would still be illegal...

The fact airsoft guns have to be identifiable to police etc as harmless at a glance, leaves firearm-copy CO2 airguns as an obvious 'next step' for the ratchet tighteners. 12 ft/lb PCPs, which can perform a high rate of fire are probably next in line, but their high cost by and large probably keeps them out of the hands of the 'neds'.

The only reason governments do bans in incremental steps, rather than widescale restrictions (after gun-related shocks like in NZ), is the difficulty (and cost) of enforcing something that potentially affects millions of people. That's why proportionality rules. The first firearm laws were almost 100 years ago and relatively low-powered airguns are still easily available to those who want to buy them now.

I agree we need an umbrella organisation to protect our rights but unless this happens (unlikely, sadly), we have to be savvy about who we get into bed with! Personally, I think proponents of military-style airguns have more to gain from solidarity with us than vice versa.

[Jerry Cornelius]

.
But firearm-style CO2 guns are an anomaly that were illegal for decades and only legalised as a sop post-Dunblane. If the government hadn't done this (mainly to replace a lost revenue stream for the gun trade) they would still be illegal...

My understanding is that CO2 was thought to be illegal because of Section 5(1)(b) (any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid gas or other thing) so the legalisation was more a case of clarifying a stupid interpretation of the Act. Nevertheless it’s the only liberalisation of firearms legislation in my lifetime so I’ll take it.

Military look alike air pistols are only an “anomaly” because of the stupid ban on “realistic imitation firearms “ itself brought in as one of the periodic tightening of controls needed to generation headlines every few years. (For the same reason you can’t buy a green knife with the word zombie on it, but you could buy exactly the same knife in black without the word zombie on it. Seriously)

If military/ powder burner look alike airguns are banned that’s the Mars 115 gone, the Haenel 33, the vz 35 and 47, the Hakim, the crosman 38s and M1, probably the crosman mk 1 and 2, and those are just the collectibles off the top of my head. I’m sure there are more.

[Powderfinger]

HW45 gone, old Jackals gone and the Lightning Tactical XL gone plus lots of other modern PCPs that don't have wood stocks and blued metal. From what I have seen of politics, it is necessary to fight every inch and every increment. Throwing anyone else's hobby to the wolves just encourages the wolves.
The gun trade would not survive without CO2 pistols. They sell in much bigger numbers than sporting rifles and the buyers are a lot more generous.

[Abasmajor]

Some may remember that in 2016 Yorkshire Police unilaterally decided that the Steyr LP50 multi-shot match air pistol was a semi-automatic and therefore illegal despite government guidelines specifically excluding air guns from the legislation. The importers stock was seized and held pending further investigation on behalf of the police authority. Expert evidence concluded that the pistol was in fact "self-indexing' and not 'semi-automatic' so even if air guns weren't excluded, it was still perfectly legal to own one of these pistols. The seized guns were consequently returned with little in the way of an apology never mind compensation. Some police authorities take this sort of groundless action knowing that any legal costs they may incur should they lose a challenge will be funded by the taxpayer, so probably worth a punt. At the risk of repeating what has already been said in this thread, unity in the defence of the encroachment on any form of presently legal ownership and use of guns of any type must be strongly resisted for all our sakes.

Brian

[Garvin]

HW45 gone, old Jackals gone and the Lightning Tactical XL gone plus lots of other modern PCPs that don't have wood stocks and blued metal. From what I have seen of politics, it is necessary to fight every inch and every increment. Throwing anyone else's hobby to the wolves just encourages the wolves.
The gun trade would not survive without CO2 pistols. They sell in much bigger numbers than sporting rifles and the buyers are a lot more generous.

Don't get me wrong, I wish there was an organisation to fight for us all and hold the line. But there isn't and it doesn't look like there ever will be. BASC is good as far as it goes, but its focus is sporting firearms, and airguns are an afterthought. BASC has lobbied hard to keep gun laws that might affect country landowners fairly static, but didn't manage to counter the tabloid-led hysteria that led to airgun licensing in Scotland.

In the absence of an NRA-style umbrella organisation that protects us all, airgunners are exposed and talking tough about sticking together sounds good but in reality won't help stop the next incremental attack on our rights.

In 50 years' time, if airguns are going to remain in general ownership, maybe we have to think hard about what is realistic in a hostile climate. Being able to own a concealable firearm-lookalike probably isn't realistic, but owning an HW35 or AA TX200 might well be, given some shrewd manoeuvering.

[Abasmajor]

Don't get me wrong, I wish there was an organisation to fight for us all and hold the line. But there isn't and it doesn't look like there ever will be. BASC is good as far as it goes, but its focus is sporting firearms, and airguns are an afterthought. BASC has lobbied hard to keep gun laws that might affect country landowners fairly static, but didn't manage to counter the tabloid-led hysteria that led to airgun licensing in Scotland.

In the absence of an NRA-style umbrella organisation that protects us all, airgunners are exposed and talking tough about sticking together sounds good but in reality won't help stop the next incremental attack on our rights.

In 50 years' time, if airguns are going to remain in general ownership, maybe we have to think hard about what is realistic in a hostile climate. Being able to own a concealable firearm-lookalike probably isn't realistic, but owning an HW35 or AA TX200 might well be, given some shrewd manoeuvering.

Hi Danny,

I accept what you're saying would seem logical, but I fear any unchallenged erosion will eventually lead to the eradication of ALL guns except for essential needs such as vermin control.

Brian

[ccdjg]

The problem is that politicians will always legislate against the instrument of misuse rather than the instigator of misuse, as it is cheaper than having the prison system full of idiots serving long sentences. Any appeal against future restrictive actions will only succeed if strong economic supporting arguments can be made.

[micky2]

Hi Danny,

I accept what you're saying would seem logical, but I fear any unchallenged erosion will eventually lead to the eradication of ALL guns except for essential needs such as vermin control.

Brian

It's the old story united we stand divided we fall.

[master_shriller]

C02 guns were not illegal, but they were classed as firearms and if you wanted one, you needed an FAC.

There is a longstanding member who has posted on this thread who had Crosman 600 on his ticket, amongst others.

He commented before the legality of CO2 pistols was mentioned. IIRC pump airguns were also on ticket.

I was in a local gun shop in about 2005 and a women came in with her husband. She saw some replica CO2 pistols in a locked glass case and said they're not very secure She also wondered why they were being sold, as she knew about the hand gun ban.

I've had a few but have only kept one, a nickel RWS 6inch target, as with a moderator it's really quite, also it's pretty accurate. But I'm still not keen on realistic looking replica guns as I believe they give members of the public the wrong idea. Plus I prefer hand guns the shoot proper bullets.

[majex45]

Yes, but when they do, it'll be easier to argue they are barking up the wrong tree.

Oh! How naive.

[Hsing-ee]

There seems to be a concerted on-line effort to demonstrate how a toy gun (softair/CO2/air) can be altered to fire live ammo. Despite warnings that such alterations are illegal and dangerous such commentaries seem qualified by the suggestion they(the commentaries) are of 'academic value 'only-really? I see such items as fodder for the gun-restricting lobby.

It is simply not possible to convert an airsoft or a CO2 gun to fire live ammo. The idea is ridiculous. The Home Office people would have known this when they removed the requirement for a sub-6 fpe carbon dioxide pistol to be on ticket.

Blank-firers can be converted to a very basic kind of firearm with a very short range, and an improvised shotgun can be made from a couple of lengths of sturdy pipe. Certain types of spring air-rifle can be converted to .22 rimfire, and most PCPs can be pushed well over the 12 fpe limit relatively easily.

The Brocock and Saxby-Palmer revolvers and derringers, adapted as they were from real centrefire weapons COULD be converted to fire live ammo, with a great deal of engineering skill, and they were banned.

I don't think you should be over-concerned.

[edbear2]

Yes, but when they do, it'll be easier to argue they are barking up the wrong tree.

I don't think you realise the antipathy most people have towards any air weapon, as I may have mentioned before I have varied hobbies, one of which is playing music in pubs and clubs with like minded (musically) people.

I cannot recall how the conversation got round to it, but it was local history and I just piped up about Bell Target shooting in the area.

"You mean you have guns!" .a couple of people exclaimed.

"Well I did, shotguns and also used to shoot all sorts of firearms, these days though just a few vintage air rifles and a more modern one for target shooting" says I.

"No-one should be allowed to have guns of any sort!" exclaimed another person, and basically out of say 15-16 people there all agreed the same and it got quite frosty.

Nothing I said or tried to explain would change their minds, it was all "the sort of people who have guns like to inflict pain on innocent animals" etc.

They then started on about "fish tormenting" (fishing)..I kept stum about that as wanted to get out alive

I know music people tend to be quite left of centre in attitude from what I have heard over the years, but honestly the pure anger and total not willing to even let you try and explain was quite a eye opener, I would say ages between late 40's to 70's as well so all have been around a bit.

ATB, ED

[Hsing-ee]

I don't think you realise the antipathy most people have towards any air weapon, as I may have mentioned before I have varied hobbies, one of which is playing music in pubs and clubs with like minded (musically) people.

I cannot recall how the conversation got round to it, but it was local history and I just piped up about Bell Target shooting in the area.

"You mean you have guns!" .a couple of people exclaimed.

"Well I did, shotguns and also used to shoot all sorts of firearms, these days though just a few vintage air rifles and a more modern one for target shooting" says I.

"No-one should be allowed to have guns of any sort!" exclaimed another person, and basically out of say 15-16 people there all agreed the same and it got quite frosty.

Nothing I said or tried to explain would change their minds, it was all "the sort of people who have guns like to inflict pain on innocent animals" etc.

They then started on about "fish tormenting" (fishing)..I kept stum about that as wanted to get out alive

I know music people tend to be quite left of centre in attitude from what I have heard over the years, but honestly the pure anger and total not willing to even let you try and explain was quite a eye opener, I would say ages between late 40's to 70's as well so all have been around a bit.

ATB, ED

I think you just got a lot of people with extremely similar views in one spot and they were no more typical than any other kind of echo-chamber. Also I bet if you said you'd shot for the UK in the Olympic Squad they would have changed their tune. Were they perhaps 'original hippy' types thinking you had been in the Nam and had gone gun crazy from all the war you done like some kind of Worcestershire version of the fellow in 'Taxi Driver'?