trouble in store?

[Garvin]

That attitude has a tendency to backfire. They are not coming for YOUR guns- TODAY- as someone else is at the front of "evil".
But when the military replicas are gone, the "antis" are coming for the next item....

Yes, but when they do, it'll be easier to argue they are barking up the wrong tree.

[Abasmajor]

Yes, but when they do, it'll be easier to argue they are barking up the wrong tree.

Hi Danny,
What I have learned the hard way is that no matter how reasonable your arguments are on these occasions, if you are part of a minority group, they will be ignored. It's easier for the general public to do that than seriously consider the facts. Unfortunately, I believe that a strategy of divide and conquer together with ever increasing draconian legislation will eventually result in the virtual eradication of shooting sports in the UK.
Brian

[Farsight]

Hi Danny,
What I have learned the hard way is that no matter how reasonable your arguments are on these occasions, if you are part of a minority group, they will be ignored. It's easier for the general public to do that than seriously consider the facts. Unfortunately, I believe that a strategy of divide and conquer together with ever increasing draconian legislation will eventually result in the virtual eradication of shooting sports in the UK.
Brian

I fear you may be right, and shooters here appear to be in a cleft stick : They feel constrained by the fact that if any should demonstrate their ire at potential restrictions then the fact that they might be protesting less than politely, may well be used to suggest that they are unfit to have a gun, never mind what sort !
Periodically some stuffed shirt tells us that "the general public think this", or "we have had to bow to public pressure". These are just sound bites. No one in authority has any intention of actually finding out what the public actually thinks, in case they turn out to be more on the ball and less aquiescent than the politicos would like ! Nuff said...

[Muskett]

All I see is moaning in shooting circles. Heck one discipline is far too fast to diss another. Our NRA basically said they weren't interested in military rifles. But they aren't the only ones.
How they heck did we allow sporting handguns to be banned? How the heck did we allow airsoft guns to have to be neon orange or blue?
The largest London march was put together by the Country Alliance. However, there are those who went and now moan it was under false pretences. Maybe it was to them, but thats not the point.
The most modern guns happen o be black, but wow how the woody boys show how much they don't like them.
We make our own bed, and its a lumpy one.

Far too many are meek about the subject.

Any metal machinist can make a Sten gun. Anyone can drive to Europe and smuggle back an assault rifle. Heck, you can buy most guns in France over the counter so long as you fill out an export form (no proof of identity beyond something that can be easily faked required.)

The USA NRA has clout because not only does it have millions of members but it has the cash to make a difference. When has anyone in the UK put £500 into a fighting fund. Maybe half a dozen.
So whose fault is it really? Its a cultural thing.

[majex45]

Yes, but when they do, it'll be easier to argue they are barking up the wrong tree.

Oh! How naive.

[edbear2]

Yes, but when they do, it'll be easier to argue they are barking up the wrong tree.

I don't think you realise the antipathy most people have towards any air weapon, as I may have mentioned before I have varied hobbies, one of which is playing music in pubs and clubs with like minded (musically) people.

I cannot recall how the conversation got round to it, but it was local history and I just piped up about Bell Target shooting in the area.

"You mean you have guns!" .a couple of people exclaimed.

"Well I did, shotguns and also used to shoot all sorts of firearms, these days though just a few vintage air rifles and a more modern one for target shooting" says I.

"No-one should be allowed to have guns of any sort!" exclaimed another person, and basically out of say 15-16 people there all agreed the same and it got quite frosty.

Nothing I said or tried to explain would change their minds, it was all "the sort of people who have guns like to inflict pain on innocent animals" etc.

They then started on about "fish tormenting" (fishing)..I kept stum about that as wanted to get out alive

I know music people tend to be quite left of centre in attitude from what I have heard over the years, but honestly the pure anger and total not willing to even let you try and explain was quite a eye opener, I would say ages between late 40's to 70's as well so all have been around a bit.

ATB, ED

[Hsing-ee]

I don't think you realise the antipathy most people have towards any air weapon, as I may have mentioned before I have varied hobbies, one of which is playing music in pubs and clubs with like minded (musically) people.

I cannot recall how the conversation got round to it, but it was local history and I just piped up about Bell Target shooting in the area.

"You mean you have guns!" .a couple of people exclaimed.

"Well I did, shotguns and also used to shoot all sorts of firearms, these days though just a few vintage air rifles and a more modern one for target shooting" says I.

"No-one should be allowed to have guns of any sort!" exclaimed another person, and basically out of say 15-16 people there all agreed the same and it got quite frosty.

Nothing I said or tried to explain would change their minds, it was all "the sort of people who have guns like to inflict pain on innocent animals" etc.

They then started on about "fish tormenting" (fishing)..I kept stum about that as wanted to get out alive

I know music people tend to be quite left of centre in attitude from what I have heard over the years, but honestly the pure anger and total not willing to even let you try and explain was quite a eye opener, I would say ages between late 40's to 70's as well so all have been around a bit.

ATB, ED

I think you just got a lot of people with extremely similar views in one spot and they were no more typical than any other kind of echo-chamber. Also I bet if you said you'd shot for the UK in the Olympic Squad they would have changed their tune. Were they perhaps 'original hippy' types thinking you had been in the Nam and had gone gun crazy from all the war you done like some kind of Worcestershire version of the fellow in 'Taxi Driver'?

[eyebull]

I've had some minor successes over the years when confronted with people who say "No one should have a gun!/Guns are evil!" etc., by simply asking, "Why?", and letting them attempt to lay out a cohesive argument, which they are usually unable to do; their opinions generally being received rather than a position that they have come to through applying their own logic and knowledge.
Pointing out that shooting (in several forms) is an olympic sport, that it is no more militaristic than archery, and also telling people how many legally held guns are really out there - off the top of my head about a quarter of a million shotguns and at least a million air rifles - and how infrequently, both proportionately and absolutely, they are involved in any kind of misdeed has led to quite a few people changing their minds IME, at least reaching a kind of indifference rather than hostility.

As for 'military looking' guns, most of the public can't tell their arse from their elbow or a BSA Lightning from an SA80 so this kind of appeasement and self-cannibalisation is deeply unproductive IMO. Shooters of all stripes need to stick together, end of.

[Garvin]

I've had some minor successes over the years when confronted with people who say "No one should have a gun!/Guns are evil!" etc., by simply asking, "Why?", and letting them attempt to lay out a cohesive argument, which they are usually unable to do; their opinions generally being received rather than a position that they have come to through applying their own logic and knowledge.
Pointing out that shooting (in several forms) is an olympic sport, that it is no more militaristic than archery, and also telling people how many legally held guns are really out there - off the top of my head about a quarter of a million shotguns and at least a million air rifles - and how infrequently, both proportionately and absolutely, they are involved in any kind of misdeed has led to quite a few people changing their minds IME, at least reaching a kind of indifference rather than hostility.

As for 'military looking' guns, most of the public can't tell their arse from their elbow or a BSA Lightning from an SA80 so this kind of appeasement and self-cannibalisation is deeply unproductive IMO. Shooters of all stripes need to stick together, end of.

Slight contradiction here! You use the argument that shooting is an Olympic sport, no more militaristic than archery, yet some pistols are modelled on firearms designed specifically to kill people, even if they can actually barely puncture a tin can at 20 yards.

You and I are relaxed about this, because we know they are harmless and great fun, but people who see all guns as the same are inclined to lump all guns together. Unfortunately there are a lot more of them than us smart folk!

I think our argument would be stronger if it was clear we were talking about ie. a break barrel springer or vintage pop-out, than all airguns together, including mock-up firearms.

In a perfect world people would understand these subtleties. But as I said above, proponents of firearm-like airguns have more to gain by sticking close to us than vice versa. I don't think for a second we should cut them loose any time soon, but when push comes to shove I think it might be wise to fall back on the 'Olympic sport more like archery' argument.

[eyebull]

Bows and javelins are also modelled on military weapons, and I'd venture that far more people have been killed by them over the course of history than firearms!

Honestly, a ban on 'military looking' guns is absolutely the thin end of a thick wedge, and though you may be thinking in terms of airsofters and neds with umarex replicas, this would also cover everything from Schimels to Daisys. And it will not stop there.

[Jerry Cornelius]

Slight contradiction here! You use the argument that shooting is an Olympic sport, no more militaristic than archery, yet some pistols are modelled on firearms designed specifically to kill people, even if they can actually barely puncture a tin can at 20 yards.

You and I are relaxed about this, because we know they are harmless and great fun, but people who see all guns as the same are inclined to lump all guns together. Unfortunately there are a lot more of them than us smart folk!

I think our argument would be stronger if it was clear we were talking about ie. a break barrel springer or vintage pop-out, than all airguns together, including mock-up firearms.

In a perfect world people would understand these subtleties. But as I said above, proponents of firearm-like airguns have more to gain by sticking close to us than vice versa. I don't think for a second we should cut them loose any time soon, but when push comes to shove I think it might be wise to fall back on the 'Olympic sport more like archery' argument.

People who want to ban guns will always be trying to ban guns. The longer they are forced to argue about airsoft or whatever the longer it will be until they can say, right, we’ve banned airsoft, now let’s try to ban the next thing.

Because they will never, ever say that’s enough bans , no more, there is no point whatsoever agreeing to or not fighting any ban. No compromise is possible with these people

[eyebull]

People who want to ban guns will always be trying to ban guns. The longer they are forced to argue about airsoft or whatever the longer it will be until they can say, right, we’ve banned airsoft, now let’s try to ban the next thing.

Because they will never, ever say that’s enough bans , no more, there is no point whatsoever agreeing to or not fighting any ban. No compromise is possible with these people

The hard core of hoplophobes are quite small in number, a far smaller contingent than gun anoraks even.
Where they score is in their willingness to weaponise public opinion and draw the otherwise indifferent to their cause in a way that the shooting community continually fails to do.
In this way they also have youth on their side.

A more proactive approach is needed, it's no use trying to lay low and just hope that the legislative eye never turns to your particular corner of interest.

[edbear2]

I think you just got a lot of people with extremely similar views in one spot and they were no more typical than any other kind of echo-chamber. Also I bet if you said you'd shot for the UK in the Olympic Squad they would have changed their tune. Were they perhaps 'original hippy' types thinking you had been in the Nam and had gone gun crazy from all the war you done like some kind of Worcestershire version of the fellow in 'Taxi Driver'?

Mostly retired local authority / Education / Public service types, car park full of near new cars, always seem to be just back from some holiday somewhere nice, so yes a certain demographic. I think I am the only one in the whole group who has had manual employment from what I heard / could glean prior to that night.

A couple are ex Uni then did all the festivals / went to India etc. Hippy types in the past who do /did alternative stuff as an income.

I don't think the Oylimpic argument would hold up, there was muttering about "War Toys" and the like too on the night, and even total dismissal when I mentioned farmers and the like needing guns etc.

As for echo chambers, well that's what we are here, it is honestly quite an eye opener to see opinions of other folk.

Maybe members on here should mention the subject somehow in a work / social setting of non shooters and report back to see if my experence was unusual or more normal than we may realise.

ATB, Ed

[Hsing-ee]

Mostly retired local authority / Education / Public service types, car park full of near new cars, always seem to be just back from some holiday somewhere nice, so yes a certain demographic. I think I am the only one in the whole group who has had manual employment from what I heard / could glean prior to that night.

A couple are ex Uni then did all the festivals / went to India etc. Hippy types in the past who do /did alternative stuff as an income.

I don't think the Oylimpic argument would hold up, there was muttering about "War Toys" and the like too on the night, and even total dismissal when I mentioned farmers and the like needing guns etc.

As for echo chambers, well that's what we are here, it is honestly quite an eye opener to see opinions of other folk.

Maybe members on here should mention the subject somehow in a work / social setting of non shooters and report back to see if my experence was unusual or more normal than we may realise.

ATB, Ed

A couple of the young women (20s, university educated) at work expressed an interest in trying target shooting when I mentioned it, and a ex-colleague (30s) in the university expressed an interest in trying clay pigeon shooting, and he is a musician. However a lot of school teachers I know just say 'ban them' but then they would ban everything and have people sitting at home at their desks all day if they had their way.

A global ban on the military having weapons is what the people you describe actually seem to want, rather than a ban on sporting arms. But I don't think that is 'feasible'!

[laverdabru]

Years ago, pre Dunblane, I worked as a Civil Servant. Many workmates used to do full bore pistol/rifle shooting, reloading etc.
When I worked for Royal Mail there were quite a few posties who shot both airguns & shotties, trained gundogs & so on.
More recently, I've worked in retail. & found mentioning I have a 'few' old airguns leads to some odd questions, chiefly about the legality of our hobby. People seem to know very little about them compared to when I was growing up. Even a girl who trains horses & rides with the local Hunt was amazed I had airguns, & that I disliked grey squirrels - 'Oh, but they're so cute'.
Whereas, all my neighbours know I shoot, & with one exception (a local councillor...) have no problem with it.

ATB

Bru