Webley Rebel bolt seal question

[kash2001]

Hi deejayuu many thanks for the idea and coincidentally I had just bought some .177 bsa ultra, hornet, scorpion probe seals tonight of the bay in an attempt to try another sealing solution 👍 thank you for your kind offer, much appreciated, but hopefully the ones purchased may work 🙏

The other seal in the brass pump head is really a pain, if bought some needle nose thin pliers in the hope of squeezing the seal into the brass cylinder, but at present it just won't go in to the face of the pump head.

I know it's a difficult task but almost seems impossible. The pellet probe length may be an issue to.visit later hopefully when I've got it working again 😱

Atb

[--ped--]

the seal is too big if it won't fit in you have removed the retainer?

[kash2001]

Hi Ped thanks for the continued help, the seal is a red one that's quite thick similar to that that goes in front of the ball valve of the pressure valve system. It is thick but the old one was too 🤔 so the inner part of the pump arm appears to be 1 solid brass unit with a ridge machined in it half way down I assume its to keep the spring and metal valve head blow off in line.

It's this ridge that the red rubber oring won't pass, it compresses and goes sideways rather than just push in and fitting against the rear of the pump head seal.

I don't think it's the wrong size as I've bought several services packs over the years and not seen a small red thick seal, but I'm happy to be wrong 😁 just can't get it past that inner ridge of the pump arm head.

Many thanks.

[--ped--]

the blow off valve seal goes in the other end of the piston you remove the rod slacken the nut and unscrew the spring aduster and remove along with the spring
you then unscrew the internal seal retainer and remove to get access to the seal

[kash2001]

Ahah thank you ped ���� that makes sense, I expect it's a specialist tool that's normally used, as the gap is quite wide. I did see some slots either side of an inner sleeve , which I assume is a thread retainer that must be removed.

I'll have a go tomorrow and see if I can get that inner sleeve out.

Thanks for the help, the battle is on ��

Atb

[--ped--]

a 10mm blade screw driver with the tapered sides ground so they're 10mm as well is all i use
if you get a real stiff one a screw extractor can get them out

[kash2001]

Well I tried hard, but that inner thread on the brass pump vale inner spacer refuesed to come out and just scored itself, I even ground down a oversized screwdriver to slot into the grooves on the inner space reducer. So the brass pump is done for, I cant get a new seal in and its burred the spacer grooves. I tried putting a slightly softer rubber oring in instead of the red ones, which just fitted through the spacer gap and the valve head fitted into it quite well.

Sadly when rethreading the back end screw and nut thread bolt in, with the spring and valve head in front of it, the thread tightened and wouldnt screw in, Im guessing that the brass must have disorted in my rubber clamp, it definately wasnt cross threaded, but was almost impossible to screw back in more than 1/4 of an inch. So I'll have to revert to the old webley rebel version, which immediately will reduce power.

I'll reassemble and see what happens , Ive rechecked the seals in the main valve body and alignment with the barrel port and all seems good, so I can only hope to get to 9ft/lb and give up. I hate being beaten when stripping and rebuilding, but I think its never going to get over 9ft/lb.

If anyone has any Innova pump head spares or a .22 then I'd happily look at buying some bits, but its not gone as I had expected but lessons learned. I did find out that the maiin inner valve assembly of the orginal innova, is bigger than the rebel and cant be swapped out, although they look similar theres a difference of about 1 mill overall.

Thank you for everyone thats tried to help and contribute, especially Ped and Lawrie for your specific help its been greatfully received, but trying to impove the rebel has been more than difficult, Although mine was accurate it was just gutless and didnt pump at all initially, but it had impoved buy swapping out the pump valve assembly, but now thats gone, I'll see what I can ressurect.

1-0 to the desginers of the rebel

Atb

[junglie]

Hi Zakdingel thanks for the suggestions, the probe seal thing 🙄 "pack the underside with some thread" I'm not 100% sure what type of thread to use.

The barrel is quite firm so unless misaligned, I'm reluctant to break the seal, but if all else doesn't work then that's where I'll have to go 👍 I can get an Allen key through to the barrel top but I guess it needn't be to far out to cause an issue.

The seal for the probe i think will need something much firmer, but untill I sort what the actual cause is I'll keep the seal as it's doing about a 75/80% job.

Atb

plumbers ptfe thread tape good for packing o rings out to see if they are undersize.

[--ped--]

it might still be useable
all these pistons came in a batch of parts i bought and were deemed beyond use
one has had the main seal retaining ridge machined out so that i'll silver solder in a new piece of brass and make it into an o ring head with a matching flat faced valve front

greenshot download


screen shot pc
screengrab
screenshot software
i may start doing service exchange units

[ratbuster2240]

Nice work. Ped would have it sorted or Lawrie wouldn't give up on it either. Is 9 fpe low for a Rebel? I thought most .22's were about 10 fpe.

[--ped--]

best i've got so far is 10.7 on 3 pumps with a valve enspired by Ged's work
i have made a a few FTP prototypes but never have time to do more tuning work on them
the bored out piston head in the above pics i sorted this afternoon and matched it with a FTP prototype




photohost free

[ratbuster2240]

That's very efficient and great to see your work. I hope Kash gets his sorted.

[kash2001]

Yes that certainly does look great, the best I've had out of mine was 9.4 ISH it came at 8ftlb, I've double checked the main valve assembly and alignment and all seems ok. The main valve as Ped showed needs reworking for sure, but the pump blow off is not able to put much power in it. If Ped was getting 10.5 off 3 pumps that would be a dream for me �� I was giving 8 pumps and getting 9ft-lb depending upon pellet and the probe seal.

It is such a shame as although not the quality of the Innovas it had potential to be a reasonable gun and accurate as mine is that if nothing else.

Fortunately I have had offers of help to sort the pump valve for which I am very grateful, some great guys on here that are superb machinist, of which I am not �� computers and android on the other hand �� I'm better at, but just love my guns ��

I'll report back once the gun is in a better state.

Atb

[ratbuster2240]

It's enjoyable but often frustrating tweaking these guns. Most of us don't have the skills Ped has and I'd be happy with 10 fpe at max pumps without substantial modification. Keep us posted.

[deejayuu]

[QUOTE=--ped--;8050035]best i've got so far is 10.7 on 3 pumps with a valve enspired by Ged's work
i have made a a few FTP prototypes but never have time to do more tuning work on them
the bored out piston head in the above pics i sorted this afternoon and matched it with a FTP prototype
Excellent read/info. Thanks. For my info. what's FTP please?