Frankenguns

[Jerry Cornelius]

A question for the learned assembly: suppose you have two guns of the same type (only two?). Let’s say one has good woodwork and a tatty action, the other has a good action but the woodwork is poor

Is it ok to swap bits around to make one good gun (and one tired one) or are you losing history if you do?

I’m not sure what I think. For very rare guns it’s a clear no from me. Similarly for guns with a long production run and many small and possibly undocumented variations (the original crosman pumpers for instance).

On the other hand no one would challenge using a non working donor to restore a gun to working order (I think). And if you, say, swap the grips around on a pair of identical pistols are you really losing anything? Indeed, would anyone know, although that’s not really the point.

So I’m not sure where the line is. Or even if there is a line. What do we think?

[WebleyWombler]

In that situation with a pair of the same model, I would swop the parts and make up a decent gun. i would then put the other one in the 'To Do' pile to be refurbished later. This would be carried out either as a 'Cabinet Queen ' or a functioning user depending on the rarity.
I will put up with a lot, tatty, rusty guns don't bother me, but they must function as the makers intended or better. I can't stand to see a gun not working.

[Shed tuner]

I will put up with a lot, tatty, rusty guns don't bother me, but they must function as the makers intended or better. I can't stand to see a gun not working.

ditto - it just has to work !

[Garvin]

A contrary view from a collector first, shooter second...

I hate Frankenguns! To me, knowingly having eg. a BSA prewar with one stock/trigger block and another cylinder in my collection would be unthinkable. The odd screw, maybe, even perhaps grips on a pistol if the originals were terrible on an otherwise excellent gun. But something that changes an airgun's identity? Never!

[WebleyWombler]

A contrary view from a collector first, shooter second...

I hate Frankenguns! To me, knowingly having eg. a BSA prewar with one stock/trigger block and another cylinder in my collection would be unthinkable. The odd screw, maybe, even perhaps grips on a pistol if the originals were terrible on an otherwise excellent gun. But something that changes an airgun's identity? Never!

I dislike Mongrels. In my post I stated I would swop parts over if the guns were of the same model. I do not (unless it is really desperate ) swop bits about on any gun that I feel has a historical connection. B2s are my victim of choice at the moment and I think I've sawed up 11 in the past year for my experiments.
We must remember that in the past, people did what was expedient to put their guns back into use or to 'Customise' one for their purpose. As an example , would you consider a Webley MkIII in .22 fitted with a PH16 to be a frankengun?,or an older HW that has had a record trigger fitted? Guns evolve over the years, sights get lost , screws strip or get lost, cocking arm snap or the pivots wear, Even BSA changed the cocking arm for a later version if they got a pre 1911 in for repair.
When I see an older gun that has been modified I always ask myself. is is sensible, is it competent, is it in the ethos of the model and above all, why was it done. Sometimes those questions throw up surprises which are worthy of research.

[Garvin]

I dislike Mongrels. In my post I stated I would swop parts over if the guns were of the same model. I do not (unless it is really desperate ) swop bits about on any gun that I feel has a historical connection. B2s are my victim of choice at the moment and I think I've sawed up 11 in the past year for my experiments.
We must remember that in the past, people did what was expedient to put their guns back into use or to 'Customise' one for their purpose. As an example , would you consider a Webley MkIII in .22 fitted with a PH16 to be a frankengun?,or an older HW that has had a record trigger fitted? Guns evolve over the years, sights get lost , screws strip or get lost, cocking arm snap or the pivots wear, Even BSA changed the cocking arm for a later version if they got a pre 1911 in for repair.
When I see an older gun that has been modified I always ask myself. is is sensible, is it competent, is it in the ethos of the model and above all, why was it done. Sometimes those questions throw up surprises which are worthy of research.

It's probably an individual view as to what exact components you think might change an airgun's identity, Fred.

To me, at the extremes it's easy to say. The odd screw clearly doesn't, whereas a new trigger block and cylinder clearly does.

Personally, I feel the nearer a gun is to the way a gun would have left the factory, the better from a collecting point of view. Different add-ons like peep sights fitted during a gun's lifetime wouldn't necessarily bother me. I collect airguns that are not so well used that they need new cocking links...

[Abasmajor]

A contrary view from a collector first, shooter second...

I hate Frankenguns! To me, knowingly having eg. a BSA prewar with one stock/trigger block and another cylinder in my collection would be unthinkable. The odd screw, maybe, even perhaps grips on a pistol if the originals were terrible on an otherwise excellent gun. But something that changes an airgun's identity? Never!

Ditto from a collector and shooter in equal measure.

Brian

[scooter48]

A contrary view from a collector first, shooter second...

I hate Frankenguns! To me, knowingly having eg. a BSA prewar with one stock/trigger block and another cylinder in my collection would be unthinkable. The odd screw, maybe, even perhaps grips on a pistol if the originals were terrible on an otherwise excellent gun. But something that changes an airgun's identity? Never!

Surely just keeping an old airgun alive is better than scrapping it.Not everyone has the money to buy top quality guns but would just like something really old.I have some top quality guns as well some old toot but i will never get rid of them.

[Garvin]

Surely just keeping an old airgun alive is better than scrapping it.Not everyone has the money to buy top quality guns but would just like something really old.I have some top quality guns as well some old toot but i will never get rid of them.

There's many different kinds of collectors, for sure.

I've been one when I had virtually no spare money and now I'm older I can afford to spend a bit more, but by no means a lot compared to some.

I think one's attitude to collecting is more a state of mind than just a question of what you can afford.

When I was younger I would buy anything interesting. Now I'm more discerning and buy much less.

I don't think one approach is better than the other, just different.

[Jesim1]

A question for the learned assembly: suppose you have two guns of the same type (only two?). Let’s say one has good woodwork and a tatty action, the other has a good action but the woodwork is poor

Is it ok to swap bits around to make one good gun (and one tired one) or are you losing history if you do?

I’m not sure what I think. For very rare guns it’s a clear no from me. Similarly for guns with a long production run and many small and possibly undocumented variations (the original crosman pumpers for instance).

On the other hand no one would challenge using a non working donor to restore a gun to working order (I think). And if you, say, swap the grips around on a pair of identical pistols are you really losing anything? Indeed, would anyone know, although that’s not really the point.

So I’m not sure where the line is. Or even if there is a line. What do we think?

I kind of agree on your take, and also that the older or rarer the gun the less desirable it is to swap bits around, but on a new gun I'd have no issue with swapping a stock I liked better to the more smooth action for instance.

[micky2]

I wouldn't feel to bad with changing grips over on Webley pistols if they were better ones on a poor pistol than on a good one.or if they damaged.

[Ragle Jnr]

Given manufacturers habit of using up parts, so called transistional models, and the age of guns where anything may have been replaced, unless the item is very rare then I would happily swap action and stock.
I guess the pivotal questions would be age and rarity, I couldn't do anything with the Haenal 27 that featured in another thread!
David

[Jerry Cornelius]

Given manufacturers habit of using up parts, so called transistional models, and the age of guns where anything may have been replaced, unless the item is very rare then I would happily swap action and stock.
I guess the pivotal questions would be age and rarity, I couldn't do anything with the Haenal 27 that featured in another thread!
David

The habit of using up parts etc is exactly what makes me hesitant about this. If you come across a gun with a mix of older and newer features, is it evidence of what the factory were doing in the 50s, or is it someones shed tinkering last year? And then there is guns returned to factory that were fitted with later parts.

I guess it doesn’t matter much for guns where there are thousands still in circulation but I feel it’s a bit iffy otherwise

[look no hands]

I'm always swapping stocks and barrels about on my Mercury's (I have that many now) but I do have a lovely unmolested example of the rifles I love in my collection (Merc S /Challenger/Airsporter S etc).

In my eyes if it keeps them shooting then so be it.

Pete