Early air rifles with double main springs

[45flint]

Noticed my FLZ XX 1920’s rifle has double springs, started to questioned it till I read in the Gallery from a catalog that their Original V had double springs as well. I know the early BSA’s had double springs. Was there a reason they used this setup? Were there other rifles that did the same?

[Kevmcc]

Relum telly did if that’s how it’s spelt

[draitzer]

Relum/Telly double springs I've encountered were one inside the other. Endwise double volute springs were the typical setup for old gallery guns, so possibly some designers assumed that was the way to go for coils as well. Of course the Walther LGV doubles were counterwound to reduce torque effect in the firing cycle, but I don't recall if BSA were counterwound - no doubt someone here can chime in.

Steve, how about your Favorit XX ones?

Don R.

[45flint]

Relum/Telly double springs I've encountered were one inside the other. Endwise double volute springs were the typical setup for old gallery guns, so possibly some designers assumed that was the way to go for coils as well. Of course the Walther LGV doubles were counterwound to reduce torque effect in the firing cycle, but I don't recall if BSA were counterwound - no doubt someone here can chime in.

Steve, how about your Favorit XX ones?

Don R.

Looks as if they are loaded counter wound, part of the reason I noticed; something looked odd.

Been discussed before:
http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....springs-anyone

[ptdunk]

As said above old gallery guns have opposing Volute springs, this is from a later Bugelspanner but my earlier Gallery guns have the same springs.

[IMG][/IMG]

I've had them all apart but never noticed that they make up a counter wound 'unit'......all the volute springs are wound the same way, and once you turn one round you end up with a counterwound pair. It may have been a happy accident but this probably contributes to their unique low recoil shot cycle.
They are low power but feel very different to coil spring guns, not sure why.

The Diana Mod 60 rifle and 6 pistols had smaller counterwound springs inside the main ones to reduce torque too.


Cheers,
Matt

[Ragle Jnr]

When I worked in a garage during the 70s, we did de cokes at around 50,000 miles, and many cars had double springs, usually, but not always, wound in different directions. I was told that two springs prevented resonance, so stop valve bounce, as they would vibrate at different frequencies. The reason for winding in opposite directions was to prevent the coils intermeshing. The springs were short and very stiff, the only time I could get them to mesh was when there was no preload on them. Looking at the volute Spring, it looks like the one on my secateurs, it has opposite directions on each end! David

[ptdunk]

Looking at the volute Spring, it looks like the one on my secateurs, it has opposite directions on each end! David

Aha! I know id seen them somewhere before

[45flint]

As said above old gallery guns have opposing Volute springs, this is from a later Bugelspanner but my earlier Gallery guns have the same springs.

[IMG][/IMG]

I've had them all apart but never noticed that they make up a counter wound 'unit'......all the volute springs are wound the same way, and once you turn one round you end up with a counterwound pair. It may have been a happy accident but this probably contributes to their unique low recoil shot cycle.
They are low power but feel very different to coil spring guns, not sure why.

The Diana Mod 60 rifle and 6 pistols had smaller counterwound springs inside the main ones to reduce torque too.


Cheers,
Matt

Oscar Will made these Gallery guns in Zella Mehlis, would have been an easy example for FLZ to follow as Don R suggests? Wonder if BSA followed or led on this one?

[ptdunk]

Oscar Will made these Gallery guns in Zella Mehlis, would have been an easy example for FLZ to follow as Don R suggests? Wonder if BSA followed or led on this one?

My earlier gallery guns date from 1880’s, don’t know how many made it to the U.K. back then?

Cheers,
Matt

[draitzer]

Looking at JGAirguns diagram for the BSA, it sure looks like the springs are wound in opposite directions:
https://www.jgairguns.biz/improved-model-d-c-78_87_824/

Don R.

[45flint]

Correction to the above on my 1920 FLZ XX. On closer look this morning the springs seem to be running the same way. But what is odd it looks like two different types of springs? The back spring when relaxed groups in double stand coils. The front spring appears like single strand coils. When cocked they both are totally compressed. From the history of the rifle and it’s appearance I’m as certain as you can be that it’s never been opened up. Probably using the springs they had to adjust to length they needed? Bet the back was standard and the front spring adjusted to length? Who knows? Lol

[draitzer]

Steve, can you explain what you mean by "The back spring when relaxed groups in double stand coils"?

A photo of the two springs would surely help, but it kinda sounds like what a broken spring looks like when the two portions wind themselves part of the way together. I'm quite sure FLZ wasn't using springs wound from two wires together.

For what it may be worth (?) my FLZ Favorit XX arrived with a spring broken on both ends - original length approx 9.5", oval wire .09 X .15, OD .83, 36 coils total. Of course I have no way to tell if this was its original spring or not.

Don R.

[Swissairgun]

I have an FLZ Original Mod. V as well and when I took it apart after receiving it, I was also surprised to find 2 springs in it. I was pretty sure it must be a bodge job, but I also found out from the old ads/catalogues that they were indeed originally fitted with 2 springs.

The 2 springs were identical. I've not figured out why they used 2 springs. From the sound perspective, the 2 spring ends grinding against each other wasn't pleasant!

Since my rifle had next to no piston washer left, and what was left was full of mangled nails and other shrapnel that I figured out were likely bits of the seal's retaining bolt, I had to order new parts for it anyway. I therefore also obtained a single spring (from an HW50), which fitted nicely after chopping off a few coils. It at least doesn't sound so bad when it's cocked now!

[45flint]

Steve, can you explain what you mean by "The back spring when relaxed groups in double stand coils"?

A photo of the two springs would surely help, but it kinda sounds like what a broken spring looks like when the two portions wind themselves part of the way together. I'm quite sure FLZ wasn't using springs wound from two wires together.

For what it may be worth (?) my FLZ Favorit XX arrived with a spring broken on both ends - original length approx 9.5", oval wire .09 X .15, OD .83, 36 coils total. Of course I have no way to tell if this was its original spring or not.

Don R.

Yes a picture is worth a thousand words. Would appreciate your thoughts. First pic is looking at the spring uncocked. The second is cocked. To me it looks like two different types of springs that are butted together? The spring on the left has a different coil pattern? To look at it now it looks like the coils are reversed? It makes little sense to have two different types of springs but I really doubt someone has changed it? Screws heads are perfect and the pin needed to remove the rear plug is unmarked.

[draitzer]

Looks fishy to me - hard to tell but possibly two different wire diameters? This puzzle can be solved by taking the spring(s) out to see what's up.
As I recall, the trigger block can be unscrewed without removing the trigger pin - do keep track of the trigger return spring as it could pop out.
Undamaged screw slots are not a sure indication of virginity, as careful use of good-fitting screwdrivers can leave no trace.

Don R.