FWB Sledge vs Giss question?

[ptdunk]

I’m assuming people have compared the FWB sledge & Giss rifles for accuracy….is there much if any difference?

I know the Feinwerkbau’s won the 10m war, but I wonder if part of it was psychological, in that the users could see the recoiless mechanism operating on the outside of the gun, whereas with the Giss and Anschutz 250 it was all internal so you maybe had to go on trust that it was doing the business?

The sledge seems a pretty easy concept to understand, and seeing is believing.

Just an idea…

[Geezer]

We did just chat about this 2 weeks ago.

http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....FWB-experiment

My own view is that, despite my liking for the Giss system, the FWB was a slightly better overall package (general quality, reliability, stock design, trigger feel, after sales support..). It’s incontrovertible that it won the most matches.

It certainly would not have hurt sales/credibility for the FWB that FWB specialised (Sport aside) in 10M target stuff, whereas Diana made everything - tinplate cheapies, pop-outs, mid-price sporters, etc.

And Diana stuck with the break-barrel 66 until they brought out the sidelever 75 in (?) 1978. Given the strong prejudice over the years against break-barrels for ultimate accuracy, that must have helped FWB too.

[ptdunk]

We did just chat about this 2 weeks ago.

http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....FWB-experiment
.

That was about FWB110 vs 150, I just wondered if anyone has compared say a 300s to a 75 for accuracy.

[DrGunn]

I have a 75 and a 300s and they are both capable of more accuracy than I am. I’ve not found either to be partially pellet fussy but suspect that if you tried to do a direct comparison between them you would get different results depending on the pellets used.

[ptdunk]

I have a 75 and a 300s and they are both capable of more accuracy than I am. I’ve not found either to be partially pellet fussy but suspect that if you tried to do a direct comparison between them you would get different results depending on the pellets used.

Thanks,
So if there’s not much in it then as Geezer said maybe there was some bais for FWB as more of a target airgun company than Diana.

I think the FWB sledge is definitely less mysterious than the Giss system from the outside.

Cheers,
Matt

[Garvin]

I don't think you should use the 300S's competition supremacy as a guide to whether it was necessarily a better rife than the 75 because FWB was competing with a fixed-barrel sidelever when the Giss Dianas were all break barrels.

Production of the 75 was delayed such that when it finally came onto the market the FWBs were already solid market leaders and Walther's LGR was ready to give FWB stiff competition. So Diana missed the boat, I think.

[DrGunn]

Thanks,
So if there’s not much in it then as Geezer said maybe there was some bais for FWB as more of a target airgun company than Diana.

I think the FWB sledge is definitely less mysterious than the Giss system from the outside.

Cheers,
Matt

I guess the fact that Feinwerkbau already had a well established track record with the 65 air pistol meant they were already accepted as one of the top manufacturers of match airguns. I also have a FWB 65 and Original model 10 and again they are both superbly accurate.
I personally really like the Giss system, when working well they are amazingly motionless on firing - almost unnervingly so.

[Phil Russell]

Is or was it all about the rifles? I suggest not. The shooters are an important part of he equation. Persuade the top shooters that one brand is best and others will follow. So FWB develop an excellent reputation, so top shooters pick FWB and the system perpetuates itself. The Giss and FWB sledge systems may well have been equal in the performance potential stakes but shooter perception accounts for a lot.
Just my opinion ...
Cheers, Phil

[Geezer]

I don't think you should use the 300S's competition supremacy as a guide to whether it was necessarily a better rife than the 75 because FWB was competing with a fixed-barrel sidelever when the Giss Dianas were all break barrels.

Production of the 75 was delayed such that when it finally came onto the market the FWBs were already solid market leaders and Walther's LGR was ready to give FWB stiff competition. So Diana missed the boat, I think.

Agreed. As I suggested above, the Diana b/b (originally, model 60, with no barrel lock) was up against the FWB sidelever right up until the LGR (introduced before the Diana 75) turned up and started to reset expectations.

[Drew451]

Is or was it all about the rifles? I suggest not. The shooters are an important part of he equation. Persuade the top shooters that one brand is best and others will follow. So FWB develop an excellent reputation, so top shooters pick FWB and the system perpetuates itself. The Giss and FWB sledge systems may well have been equal in the performance potential stakes but shooter perception accounts for a lot.
Just my opinion ...
Cheers, Phil

I completely agree with this. Geezers point about Diana pruducing just about everything affecting 66/75 sales, also. I would add that Feinwerkbau were seen as specialist target guns and they were the best supported at big competitions.
In my experience there is nothing to split a 75 vs a 300S when used as untended or from the bench. Or a 75 vs a 600 either for that matter. A top class shooter may be able to, however. It would be interesting to get Robin C's input on this subject.

[ptdunk]

the Diana b/b (originally, model 60, with no barrel lock) was up against the FWB sidelever right up until the LGR (introduced before the Diana 75)

Thanks guys,
I didn’t realise the 75 came out after the LGR, I have a 60t and although it’s great I can understand the B/B’s seems a bit basic compared to the FWB side levers.

It’s all about timing!

Good stuff.

Cheers,
Matt

[DM80]

If both were available to purchase new today I would go for the 75 in my opinion its slightly better, the trigger unit is better and the action is truly recoiless the fwb does produce a slight recoil and is twangy as hell but both guns are great 10M rifles.

Dave.

[Geezer]

Is or was it all about the rifles? I suggest not. The shooters are an important part of he equation. Persuade the top shooters that one brand is best and others will follow. So FWB develop an excellent reputation, so top shooters pick FWB and the system perpetuates itself. The Giss and FWB sledge systems may well have been equal in the performance potential stakes but shooter perception accounts for a lot.
Just my opinion ...
Cheers, Phil

Agreed. I also think (as a Giss fan) that the FWB may have been slightly better made, and more reliable. That matters if you are a serious 10M competitor. The longevity of 300s as club guns, in some cases for decades with next to no maintenance, speaks volumes.

As I’ve said before, I think the Giss is an amazing bit of engineering (and the sledge, by contrast, a bit crude), and I prefer the dead firing cycle of a well-set-up Diana, but the FWB’s record and reputation are stellar.

It can’t just be “monkey see, monkey do” - compare, say, in FT, how quickly the FWB124 came to rule the roost, then was dethroned by the 77, which was then superseded by the PCPs, all in about five or six years.

Competition is brutal on sorting the wheat from the chaff.

[Muskett]

I wasn't that good, but won some junior comps. I shot both the FWB 75? and Diana 66. The FWB had the edge, though it was my size and growing into the rifles that was the biggest part of what rifle. Rifle price had a good bit to do with it too. I used club guns.

Accuracy wise then 10m is a great help as a lot of rifles shoot straight at that range. For target rifles then the difference is in micro millimetres. So all the rest is about how most shooters get themselves around the rifle. Rifle fit and their marksmanship.
At the very very highest level it might make the difference, but also other factors such as pellet selection/weighing kick in. For mer mortals then most target rifles are better than them, the rest is subjective.

[dvd]

I have two Diana 75s and a FWB 300.
I like tinkering with the dianas and there is really nothing like them when set up correctly. The FWB twangs and vibrates because it's an old gun now, but still younger than the dianas.
In my hands the FWB is just as accurate as the dianas.