What was the Germans equivalent of Bell Target?

[Geezer]

I think you are right, and to be honest I don’t even want to say the words ‘Hitler Youth’ in any of my videos.
I think ‘German military trainer’ will have to suffice. Luckily my ‘33 is the senior version so maybe no need to mention it.

Cheers,
Matt

I think we’re in similar places. But -and I ought to know, sorry - were they actually used for training either the regular army or the Waffen SS? If not, it’s not a “military trainer”. It’s a relic from a very perverted version of the Boy Scouts.

I will shut up soon, but I have never liked the small sub-set of militaria/gun collectors who seem to like Nazi stuff because it’s Nazi.

There are undoubtedly German things from 1933-45 that are of huge historical interest, both because of their use in the war, and because they broke new ground and hugely influenced post-war developments (anything from the MP43 through the MG42 to the V2 rocket, Me262, or the type XXI submarine).

But the idea that a thing (say a Luger, in countries where they may be owned) is more desirable/valuable if it has a swastika or a totenkopf or whatever on it is just, well, sorry, but, actually sick. That Luger may have been used to shoot kneeling Jews in the back of the head.

[ptdunk]

I think we’re in similar places. But -and I ought to know, sorry - were they actually used for training either the regular army or the Waffen SS? If not, it’s not a “military trainer”. It’s a relic from a very perverted version of the Boy Scouts.

I think based on this Haenel ad the 33 ‘senior’ was still designed with youngsters in mind:

https://www.waffencenter-gotha.de/sh...aft:::168.html

(It is a 33 senior featured, not the junior model, and note the youths are in uniform clothing) that’s not your say it was never used by adults as a trainer, I just don’t know.



It’s fair to say I like this rifle despite its connection to said youths not because of it.
It’s a sensitive area, but having taken mine apart and seen how it actually works I’m really keen to explain the mechanism in a video, as it is a genius design.

Cheers,
Matt

[Josie & John]

We may be going slightly off topic with Nazi memorabilia but there is no denying it is part of history, albeit one of the darker chapters. I certainly don't think that any associations with the regime should be 'cancelled' as seems to be trendy nowadays with a certain section of today's extremists. After all, if we don't discuss or teach our kids what this regime did, we could be destined to repeat mankind's errors, including that of appeasement.

As to the memorabilia itself, it certainly appears to have the effect the regime intended in that undeniably the uniforms, daggers, badges, medals, etc. are attractive to many, hence their popularity today. Personally I don't care for it, likewise for any arms associated with the SS for just the reason Geezer stated - if original, you don't know what the item was previously used for. However, it should still be mentioned and studied as we should never forget.

John

[45flint]

Thanks John.
If you get the Google app on your phone and take a photo of the text it will translate it for you.
(If you want you can email it to me and I’ll do it) I’d be interested to see what it says.

It’s a tricky subject, I’m doing a vid on my ‘33 soon but will concentrate on the mechanics of the rifle and might even refer to the Hitler Youth as ‘cadets’ not sure yet. It’s a mechanical work of genius how that mech works.

What I’m really interested in is that period pre WW1 in Germany, when the precision hand made gallery guns of the late 1800’s were falling out of favour, and over in the U.K. we were going nuts over Bell target with LJ BSA’s.
I wonder if the Schutzenfest’s had an airgun section, or people shot short range Airguns in clubs.

I know that arms restrictions combined with the German tradition of competitive target shooting led to the development of 10m match rifles but pre ww1 is a bit of a transitional period from gallery guns to German LJ BSA clones.

My 1902/03 Oscar Will catalogue still has gallery guns for sale, so maybe that tradition carried on till WW1?
Cheers,
Matt

Matt, I look forward to a video on the Haenel 33, Hugo was a bit of a genius. Have you tried the CZ VZ35? It was designed for military training and with a design and execution that’s pretty amazing. Would love to see what you could do with it in a video?

[Josie & John]

Hi Matt,

To get back on topic, the answers you seek may well be in a book that I have in my 'to read' pile. I bought this some time ago and flicking through it, I think it is a book you will want for yourself. The photography is superb and I think you will find it useful as well as entertaining.

The book is entitled Alte Scheibenwaffen Volume 1: Old German Target Arms and the book includes target shooting history in Germany up until WW2.

The are copies available through Abe books - the ISBN is 0-9707608-3-3

I'll need to read my copy one of these days as there is an article in there I'm sure!

Kind regards,

John

[45flint]

Hi Matt,

To get back on topic, the answers you seek may well be in a book that I have in my 'to read' pile. I bought this some time ago and flicking through it, I think it is a book you will want for yourself. The photography is superb and I think you will find it useful as well as entertaining.

The book is entitled Alte Scheibenwaffen Volume 1: Old German Target Arms and the book includes target shooting history in Germany up until WW2.

The are copies available through Abe books - the ISBN is 0-9707608-3-3

I'll need to read my copy one of these days as there is an article in there I'm sure!

Kind regards,

John

From online looks like nothing on air rifles? But could be wrong?

[ptdunk]

Hi Matt,

To get back on topic, the answers you seek may well be in a book that I have in my 'to read' pile. I bought this some time ago and flicking through it, I think it is a book you will want for yourself. The photography is superb and I think you will find it useful as well as entertaining.

The book is entitled Alte Scheibenwaffen Volume 1: Old German Target Arms and the book includes target shooting history in Germany up until WW2.

The are copies available through Abe books - the ISBN is 0-9707608-3-3

I'll need to read my copy one of these days as there is an article in there I'm sure!

Kind regards,

John

Thanks John,
That book looks right up my straBe.
Seems quite pricey at the moment though, I’ll keep an eye out on the bay. Even if it doesn’t cover airguns it’ll give some insight that may lead to other avenues of research, good stuff.
Btw I understand what you mean about cancel culture, I’m not a fan either.

Matt, I look forward to a video on the Haenel 33, Hugo was a bit of a genius. Have you tried the CZ VZ35? It was designed for military training and with a design and execution that’s pretty amazing. Would love to see what you could do with it in a video?

Afraid a VZ35 is off the cards for me Steve, I think the ‘33 will have to be all the trainer I need.
Video’d me & a few friends shooting it alongside a 49a down the club today, and bloody hell they are great fun to shoot!
Full vid in due course but I couldn’t resist a bit of shooting only action, I’ll put a link to that in a separate post.

Amazing rifles.

Cheers,
Matt

[Garvin]

I get the impression that the explosion of UK bell target activity was a mixture of the upper classes taking an interest in the habits of the working classes (ie in pubs etc) only in so far as it might improve their shooting abilities when drafted into uniform, after being outclassed by Boer sharpshooters during the Boer War a few years earlier.

Combined with the ability to actually shoot safely and cheaply with bell target-type precision indoors, after GLJ's wonderful air rifles came on the market.

Whereas in Germany, target shooting - whether with flobert rifles or bolzenbusche airguns from the ordinary bierkeller to posh parlours - was already deeply ingrained in the culture from bottom to top during the previous century.

Re. Nazi memorabilia, I share Geezer's reservations about a strain of interest that strays into an unhealthy fascination. But John is right when he suggests that the Nazi propagandists went out of their way to make their paraphernalia visually striking - and therefore collectable today.

[Garvin]

PS John's book in German sounds like this one:

https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery....er%20Youth.pdf

[Geezer]

I get the impression that the explosion of UK bell target activity was a mixture of the upper classes taking an interest in the habits of the working classes (ie in pubs etc) only in so far as it might improve their shooting abilities when drafted into uniform, after being outclassed by Boer sharpshooters during the Boer War a few years earlier.

Combined with the ability to actually shoot safely and cheaply with bell target-type precision indoors, after GLJ's wonderful air rifles came on the market.

Whereas in Germany, target shooting - whether with flobert rifles or bolzenbusche airguns from the ordinary bierkeller to posh parlours - was already deeply ingrained in the culture from bottom to top during the previous century.

Re. Nazi memorabilia, I share Geezer's reservations about a strain of interest that strays into an unhealthy fascination. But John is right when he suggests that the Nazi propagandists went out of their way to make their paraphernalia visually striking - and therefore collectable today.

Sorry for the slight derail earlier (but isn’t that what conversation is about - you start off discussing football and end up with whether you’d rather have had dinner in the 70s with Roger Moore or Tony Curtis? Or is that just me?).

Someone (Sherlock Holmes?) said that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But I am struck that no-one here has evidence of organised air rifle competitions in Wilhelmine Germany paralleling bell target and miniature rifle in the U.K., both of which are very well-documented. Unlike either the HY days, or post-1951 when they basically invented 10M comps and the associated rifles and pistols, very quickly.

My hypothesis (and I may be completely wrong) is that 1900s Germans did shoot a lot in an organised and competitive manner, but with centrefire, rimfire and even Flobert, (as well as hunting practice with c/f) but not with air guns, and that their air guns were, domestically, garden “toys” and export products.

Garvin is 100% right that our lacklustre performance in the Boer War was attributed by some of the ruling classes to the need, for the next war, to grow a rough, tough, fit, outdoor-minded proletariat skilled in marksmanship, leading to the 1890s and beyond boom in all sorts of shooting disciplines (not just bell target), the Scouts, the TA (Haldane reforms) etc.

That helped them avoid dealing with the myriad failures in the Boer War of political and military leadership, planning, and logistics. It was also largely pointless. Apart from the Haldane reforms to the army, if we had really wanted to prepare to win in 1914, we’d have trained civilians on systems engineering, logistics, gunnery, aeroplanes, and the operation of the Vickers gun.

[Josie & John]

PS John's book in German sounds like this one:

https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery....er%20Youth.pdf

That's the one. Must admit this thread has kind of put me off the book a little. Now where can I sell it?


John

[mrto]

I think what the Germans were shooting during that period may be answered here.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmerstutzen

[edbear2]

Sorry for the slight derail earlier (but isn’t that what conversation is about - you start off discussing football and end up with whether you’d rather have had dinner in the 70s with Roger Moore or Tony Curtis? Or is that just me?).

Someone (Sherlock Holmes?) said that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But I am struck that no-one here has evidence of organised air rifle competitions in Wilhelmine Germany paralleling bell target and miniature rifle in the U.K., both of which are very well-documented. Unlike either the HY days, or post-1951 when they basically invented 10M comps and the associated rifles and pistols, very quickly.

My hypothesis (and I may be completely wrong) is that 1900s Germans did shoot a lot in an organised and competitive manner, but with centrefire, rimfire and even Flobert, (as well as hunting practice with c/f) but not with air guns, and that their air guns were, domestically, garden “toys” and export products.

Garvin is 100% right that our lacklustre performance in the Boer War was attributed by some of the ruling classes to the need, for the next war, to grow a rough, tough, fit, outdoor-minded proletariat skilled in marksmanship, leading to the 1890s and beyond boom in all sorts of shooting disciplines (not just bell target), the Scouts, the TA (Haldane reforms) etc.

That helped them avoid dealing with the myriad failures in the Boer War of political and military leadership, planning, and logistics. It was also largely pointless. Apart from the Haldane reforms to the army, if we had really wanted to prepare to win in 1914, we’d have trained civilians on systems engineering, logistics, gunnery, aeroplanes, and the operation of the Vickers gun.

I am sure a lot of Jerries who faced the BEF in those early days would not agree

ATB, ED

[ptdunk]

I think what the Germans were shooting during that period may be answered here.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmerstutzen

That is brilliant thank you.
Seems air rifle target shooting in Germany at the start of the century was very niche:

‘The sporty shooting with the air rifle did not occur until the 1950s, before that air rifles were considered children's toys.’

It was all about the zimmerstutzens.

Many thanks,
Matt

[mrto]

That is brilliant thank you.
Seems air rifle target shooting in Germany at the start of the century was very niche:

‘The sporty shooting with the air rifle did not occur until the 1950s, before that air rifles were considered children's toys.’

It was all about the zimmerstutzens.

Many thanks,
Matt

No probem.I've long had an interest in Zimmerstutzens I find their quirky appearance and the way they load etc very interesting,with their very low power and but for our draconian gun laws they should be enjoyed FAC free by airgun shooters here today IMO.

Oh well!